 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-05 23:26
In the last year or so, I've notices that with my reeds (Vandoren 3 1/2, V12) have gone right down in quality - I'm lucky to get one good performance reed out of a box, and 1 worth practising on. I also have to do a lot of work on these reeds to get them to work.
I came to my wit's end when I got a new box the other week, and NONE out of this box would work for me.
I am now looking for other brands to use... Preferrably similar to Vandoren, because I like them *when they work*. I've tried Mitchell Luries, Grand Concerto, Zonda... And don't like any of these. My teacher suggested simply try the 'normal' purple box Vandorens, which I will get a box of tomorrow, but, this is Vandoren's last chance with me!
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could try, and where (on the Internet) I could order them from? Is there anywhere I can buy a 'sampler pack' type thing?
Once again, thanks for your help guys!
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-11-05 23:33
I'm about to order some Gonzalez and Mozart Reeds (or whatever they're called) from the Doc. I usually like the Vandoren blue box reeds so I'm hoping to have success with the Mozart ones.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-05 23:58
Morrigan...Read the thread on this page "Davie Cane:Mozart Reeds"
Also, search for my favorable comments (and those from others) concerning Gonzalez reeds.
No brand of reed is the ultimate solution, and each clarinetist must judge for themselves the tonal quality and response they are looking for, but during this past year (and I'm sure Davie Cane would back up this assertion) many players have turned to Gonzalez/Mozart reeds and have continued to use them...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-11-06 00:00
Keep in mind, reeds are an organic product so they will vary some from batch to batch and season to season much like wine. The only thing that I can say is make sure you are breaking them in well. You may also wanted to make sure your mouthpiece has not changed (warped, etc). I have had better luck with the standard Vandorens. Good luck.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-06 01:02
Meower
Have not considered synthetic until yesterday when read Mezzo chapter on reeds. Seems synthetics are not the way to go... yet. Will wait for further developments in this department.
GBK
Thanks, will definitely try if standard Vandorens do not prove to work well. A friend has ordered Mozarts, so will hear what he has to say about them.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-11-06 01:05
Have you given the home-grown brand a shot? Reeds Australia Vintage XL (try 3.5, file cut). I've been using them for a couple of years. For me, more usable reeds out of the box and greater longevity than V12s.
Oh, another nice thing: less pricey than Vandorens.
Good luck.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-11-06 01:15
I almost felt vindicated recently when a post here mentioned that Larry Combs frequently uses a synthetic (Légère) reed for practicing. I personally get a better sound from Fibracell -- maybe you won't. But I agree with Meower, it's worth a try. Then perhaps you could take that reed "good enough for practicing" and work it into a performance item.
Regards,
John
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-06 01:32
Ken...
You're joking, right? They are horrid, horrid, disgusting kiddies reeds! You can actually PLAY on them?! I'm lucky to get a note out, even then, it's noise pollution! No wonder my Mum (Mom) used to tell me I sound like a dead cat!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2002-11-06 02:47
I'm thinkin about trying a fibracell and/or legere myself. Just for the hey of it. I'm no pro so I don't need to sound great. Plus I've heard that they've fooled many a person and are VERY close to the real deal.
Alexi
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-11-06 03:14
For what it's worth, I really like the Legeres too. I play almost exclusively on them right now, but then again I'm not doing too much playing other than when teaching lessons at this point...
My favorite thing about 'em is that THEY DON'T CHANGE MUCH!!! I've had the same reed on my mp (yeah yeah I know...) for a couple of months now, and I've only put a cane reed on a couple of times in that time. No need to worry about what it'll feel like when I pick up the horn to toot around during a lesson...
Yeah, I know I'm lazy...lol
Katrina
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Author: jenna
Date: 2002-11-06 03:30
I was quite impressed with Fibracell. I used them for about a year, after I had some difficulty with irritation that may or may not have been some sort of cane allergy. I only quit with them because they became too difficult to get/expensive. Now I'm back to Mitchell Laurie 4's. I found the Fibracell to be just as good as cane, though. Sure, it took adjustment, but they are generally very consistent. They're also great for doubling situations or marching bands because they can be played fairly dry, and they just seem to hold up better. When I march, be it when it was the HS field shows or a parade with my community band, I always use synthetic, because I know it will never (rarely?) let me down.
Jenna
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-06 03:46
Perhaps the reed is not the problem--it may be that your mouthpiece has warped. Just a thought...........
As for Vandorans, I am having about the same success with the newbies as with the old (although I too prefer the old design). I have tried clipping the tips of these new VD's and have experianced some improvement, but the results are incosistant and difficult to predict. Good luck!!!
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Author: Nick
Date: 2002-11-06 03:59
Vandorens never work for me anymore, I've abandoned them pretty much completely. I have a box of Mitchell Luries that are alright occasionally.. but they're 3.5's, I think I'll go down to 2.5 and it will be better.
I've found that if you really, really need to practice and just need something to play on, get RICO! These things play straight of the box. They're so responsive that you barely need to soak them. I practice with Ricos when I don't have the time (or patience) to mess around with reeds. They tend to not sound so great, and in the higher register can be pretty unreliable..
..But I've tried only the basic, crappy Ricos. I've never tried any of the more expensive (better?) reeds from Rico. Has anyone tried those concert select Ricos or whatever theyre called? I wonder if they're as responsive as my cheap ricos but could maybe sound much better :-)
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-11-06 04:31
Morrigan,
The vehemence of your response to my post about Reeds Australia is surprising.
They might not work for you, but some quite decent players speak highly of them.
<a href="http://www.reedsaus.com.au" target="_blank">www.reedsaus.com.au</a>
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Author: Mark M
Date: 2002-11-06 05:02
Well, here we go again on yet another reed thread. This is getting past entertaining. Everyone hates VanDoren and etc etc etc. Morrigan, if you don't like Vandys, then go get something else and try it out just like the rest of us. You can ask who uses what, however, that data is usually useless as different people prefer different products. You gotta try them out. As for the synthetics, I have used Fibracell quite a bit in the last few years and have been perfectly satisfied with them. However, they also, are not consistent. That's why I've convinced the local music store to let me try them out as they can be wiped down just like a trial mouthpiece. And if you switch horns a lot during performances/rehearsals, you don't need to keep it wet. And if you're getting your reed information out of a book, well........ And for what it's worth, the LMS can't get any more Fibracells right now so I'm back to natural cane. Having some good luck with Rigotti Gold that I forgot I've had. Long story short.... You just have to go do it.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-06 05:58
Thanks Mark. Thanks. I don't know what to say... Other than you've just made this thread one of *those* threads.
I found it very informing to listen to other people's opinions of reeds and what they do with them. I'm sorry if you don't. I've also learned a lot. Again, I'm sorry if you haven't.
To the kind people with genuine posts - thank you so much, it is *much* appreciated
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-11-06 07:18
i've written heaps about my Gonzalez experiences.... currently still keeping me happy.
... the last box i tried of Blue Vandoren were damm awful- all hopelessly lopsided etc plus way too thin on one side to make balancing worthwhile... some time in the last couple of years i did have good luck with Vand Blues but this was not to be repeated so it seems.
re Reed Australia- i had a very good "unfiled" 3.5 that held out for an entire solo recital (in March) and that was a hard concert too.... overall i am not too fond of these, but i wouldn't trash them (as in above posting) either. Aussie Phil Green used them for ages and sounded great, then he went back to Vandoren and still sounds great. He's not satisfied with either brand, but still..... SOUNDS GREAT and gets good gigs so neither brand is a complete write off, eh?
donald
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-11-06 07:55
My money is on Gonzalez reeds. That's just my opinion though. You may hate them. Most of us at my school are switching to them. Actually the only people who aren't are the people who make their own reeds. This is another solution. I have noticed my fellow clarinetist has less reed problems since he's started making his own. It all depends on how much time you want to spend and whether you're willing to learn or not.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-11-06 08:02
I tried the Australian Vintage reeds once and thought they were good (objectively speaking) but too bright over all for me. One worth a try is Glotin Gaia. They are a bit reedy and sometimes thin, but when they are good they are one of the best I have tried. I used to play on Regal Queen and would never have changed but for the fact that they changed. Even so, their reeds may fit your set up and produce a more satifactory result. I now find them too bright and harsh.
Pity you don't like Zonda. There are times they frustrate me, but lately this is the brand I tend to go back to more and more.
At the risk of stating the obvious it seems to me that you may be entering into the reed nightmare zone where no reed can ever seem to work. It is best in such cases to stick to a new brand for a good while to allow your frustrations to "cool down" and to acclimatise to the properties of that brand. Also change your practice room. Artifacts in a practice room's acoustic can start to grate on the player, and then he/she assumes it is a reed problem they are hearing.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-11-06 11:39
Who sez everyone hates Vandorens? I don't. I get consistently good results from both the v12s and the standard ones. So don't speak for me. If reeds keep turning out bad, I'd be inclined to head down to the store and try a new mouthpiece.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-06 12:10
Maybe I'll get my teacher to check out my mp. But I've had it for almost 3 years now, it's a Larry Combs signature, hand finished. MPCs last more than 3 years, don't they???
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-11-06 12:19
I also get a consistently good response from Vandoren V12s. I tried their wine once though- terrible!
Morrigan- it could be that you've slightly damaged your mouthpiece. Even the slightest little scratch on the facing can reck a mouthpiece. Or perhaps you've watterlogged all your Vandoren reeds trying to learn the Mozart in 6 days?!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-06 12:56
It seems this was not a good year for cane and of course come spring when the next shipments are dispersed we may find it easier to get better reeds from a single box. I would hasten to add that I do also of reed fixing with knives and sandpaper and can say I get fine reeds out of a box of 3 1/2 V12 and would say reed preparation is as important as practicing.....of course everyone is in such a hurry alot of people don't do this kind of thing anymore.
In the last Symphony concert I played a V12 straight out of the box just before the concert. I also have 10 boxes of old No 5s that are yet to be opened(from the 70s) and I am looking forward to playing on aged reeds. I also reccommend to people to stockpile cane and save it for years and then the results are far better. Less time is being spent by the manufacturer in the aging process and if a reed is really green that is a bad sign!!! I have not found alot of the Green cane to be useful. Also if the grain is crooked on the cane these may be hard to get working.
Morrigan I just have to say get an exacto knife and the Opperman book on adjusting reeds and you won't have so much trouble....
Sincerely
D Dow
Symphony NB
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-11-06 13:04
I agree with D Dow. Even better than x-acto knives, I think, are the throwaway surgical scalpels you can buy in pharmacies.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-11-06 16:27
When one has reed problems, it is a good idea to look elsewhere for an answer. The mouthpiece may be worn or it may have warped. Even new mouthpieces can have problems due to imprecise manufacturing. Leaks in the instrument can make playing difficult. The clarinet top joint should hold a suction with the bottom end plugged. Good luck!!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-11-06 17:05
Time to take charge of your problem, unless incessant whinging is more fun...
You play the reed, or is it the other way around?
If you are a serious player (and it sounds as such) you may benefit from adjusting your reeds. Larry Guy has an excellent text on techniques that really work, and are not too complicated.
Remarks like "They're horrid, kiddie reeds" indicate that you pull them from the box and anticipate perfect results.
No two players are alike. My teacher plays Rigotti Gold, and I can't play them. I dig the Muncy winds release of Oliveri reeds and he can't work around them comfortably.
Shake it off, ignore the calls missed by the ref and finish checks.
You will score if, and only if, you shoot at the net.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-11-06 17:09
d dow wrote: "I just have to say get an exacto knife and the Opperman book on adjusting reeds and you won't have so much trouble...."
--I concur. I would respectfully add that in the reed department we might count our blessings. Oboists/bassoonists often live and die by their reeds and must invest more money, time and patience than us. One of my colleagues spends 2 hours daily making 10 reeds...the dude is downright obsessive but always sound's great. He tells me he'd rather be prepared and spend the money/time than on bottles of Excedrin. Part of the life (and practice routine IMO) is of course, putting in the hours and also being part-time carpenters.
I'd also supplement the Kal Opperman with the Larry Guy and Ron Vazquez's Reed Books too. Kal, from what I understand has revised/updated his book (a continuing work in progress) but the publisher has been dragging their feet re-issuing a new print. v/r KEN
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2002-11-06 19:11
I must say I don't have a problem with Vandoren, but I certainly would not dismiss plastic reeds as "kiddie reeds". I've recently moved to Legere for my bass clarinet and it has really been a revelation. The whole range is now very uniform and very responsive. There are several other advantages.
You only pay once, until you find an appropriate reed strength. (They have a special replacement system)
Much more hygienic, and more easily sterilised.
Much more cost effective.
Will not degrade and therefore
Last longer.
Don't discard the idea unless you've given them a whirl.
I've not tried Legere for soprano clarinet yet but I wouldn't rule it out if ever I found the reeds (and not my m/p) really were the problem.
Just a further thought - by the time you've gone through (notionally) ten boxes of reeds to find some good ones, you might have funded the investigation of the integrity of your own mouthpiece, and its replacement with a nice new one. !
Keep Honking !
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-11-06 21:04
Ken --
The revised Opperman book is out. It is available from Clarinet Books and More, a woodwind.org sponsor, among other places.
Todd W.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-07 01:41
I tried Fribracell and Legiere reeds today. The Legiere was too fluffy and had a huge delay in respone (I tried 3 different cuts and few diff. strengths) and the Fibracell was all center and hashi-ness, with no warmth to it (maybe just a little). But the Legiere LOOKED cool!
I am suspicious that maybe I am very very fussy about my reeds... Probably a lot more so than most.
I adjust my reeds. I don't expect results right out of the box, however I expect them to show potential for adjusting right out of the box. They are dampened and dried for about 2 weeks so that the cane fibers can become 'relaxed' and are then put into a 'stable' environment i.e. "ReedMate" container. Has moisture'control beads.
I take a lot off the shoulders - the 'smile' cut I remove completely, in favor of a V-shape going almost 3/4 of the way down. This makes the shoulders of the reed quite light and so I get a fantastic response like this. The tip is evened out diagonally across, and large obtrusive fibers smoothed out. I flatten out the flat side as well as sandpapering it for not even 2 seconds on 600-grade wet and dry sandpaper. The pores are cut off and sealed using my own skin oil.
This is all very gradual, until I get the reed 'just right' for me.
My original post was referring to the point that in the past year, I can't seem to be able to find any that still work for me using this system. Just today I bought a box of standard purple box Vandorens, so I hope I get better results. If not, I've been recommended to try the Mozarts. After them, I will try Gonzales.
I will definitely order those books soon though, thanks Mr. Dow!
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Author: susannah
Date: 2002-11-07 07:50
i have to say, for someone thats only just about to audition for university, you're taking an awful lot of trouble just with your reeds. Personally i'd be doing more practise and less fiddling around with your reeds. Plus, if you're spending THAT much time on them, and they're still not good theres something not quite working there
No offense, but its sometimes easy to get obsessed with the finding the perfect reed, and forget about your playing. There is no perfect reed (yet?!! - heres hoping), instead see what you can do to improve your tone and tecnique with the reeds you're using at the moment. Chances are, they're not as bad as you think they are.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-07 08:05
Kat
Larry Combs signature
susannah
It's OK, I don't spend THAT much time on them! And I still think that ARE *that* bad.
I got my box of 'normal' Vandorens today... I like them, I got 2 'concert' reeds, and many many worth using for practise and smaller-scale performances. I tried making a few adjustments to one, and it didn't need much at all and was sounding great in no time!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-11-07 12:49
Morrigan: Just thought I would let you know what is out there to select from for reeds:
Vandoren Traditional
Vansdoren V12
Rico Grand Concert
Glotin GAIA
Olivieri
Zonda Hand select
Gonzalez
Zonda Classico
Marca Reeds
Brancher Reeds
Reeds Australia
Selmer Reeds
Legere Synthetic
Fibracell Rico Royal
Glotin Yellow Box
Mitchell Lurie Premimium
and a pile of others
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Author: Vic
Date: 2002-11-07 14:19
It's been my experience that the regular, blue box Vandorens are better than the V12s. That being said, I still prefer the Gonzalez and the Grand Concert Evolutions. But I keep a couple of Legeres around for emergencies, and they're great. I like the Mitchel Luries, but they seem to have a shorter life span than the others and just don't seem to hold up well in the altimssimo.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2002-11-07 14:40
A reed by any other name is still a reed.
Have you tried the Reed Wizard. For reeds that are out of sink it may be a lot easier to use then a knife.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-11-07 16:21
Not that I want to recommend that anyone become an equipment junkie... and not meant to doubt Morrigan's mouthpiece, but as more of a general thought that I think relates to this discussion. Often we choose a mouthpiece based on tone, response, tuning etc. One of the aspects that we often overlook is the ease of finding a reed for it. This unfortunately, is often only known over time. One of my former teachers used to tell me that "a good mouthpiece is one that accepts a lot of different reeds". One could say it is reed friendly. I have over time had some mouthpieces that sound great, but I found I had to go throught many reeds to find one that would work. (I even had a Kaspar or two that had this problem) Consequently, I end up not playing my best since I rarely have a set up that works great. The alternative is to find a mpce that will be very flexible and forgiving and you then are working at your peak much more of the time since many more reeds work. You can spend your time playing instead of fussing.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-11-07 17:48
Both David Dow and Ed reiterrate the crux of the problem you may be having. To elaborate:
First, <b>Vandoren is having cane problems.</b> Accept that fact. They are presently bringing to market cane which is not sufficiently aged, often miscut, and of a quality which in the past would not have been packaged. This is mostly due to their lack due of thicker acceptable tubes to make into V12's (and saxophone reeds).
Is it acceptable to market poorer grade cane (which may have been considered 'rejected' years ago)? Of course not.
Therefore, in the meantime, to save your sanity, <b>explore other companies.</b> Reeds do not begin and end with Vandoren. Myself, and others, having given many worthwhile suggestions of brands to explore.
Secondly, you must have a set up which (as Ed said) is <b>"reed friendly".</b> Whether your mouthpiece is a Kaspar or a Selmer Goldentone (best analogy I can think of right now), if it does not accept a variety of reeds in various stages of response, then it is time to find one that does.
Often, in business, companies get too large for their own good, and forget their customers and focus too much on the bottom line. Perhaps it is time to try some of the other brands who are trying (at this point) much harder to create quality products...GBK
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2002-11-08 01:33
For the ultimate in uniformity, have you tried Legere synthetic reeds? I'm tired of reed tweaking and other related annoyances as well. These are not cheap ($22 each) but they are extremely uniform and very long lasting (according to the ads) Web site is below. If you try these, let me know who they work? I might spring for that experiment.
www.orpheusmusic.com/Legere_Reeds/Legere_Reed_Pricing/legere_reed_pricing.html
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2002-11-08 03:34
Jerry -
I just looked at http://www.weinermusic.com because the price of $22.00 seemed way out of line to me. That price is the suggested retail price and is not the actual price.
The price for Legere reeds at Weiner Music is $13.50 and it says you can get them for $12.00 probably for volume order.
p.s. email your order and save shipping.
I have no connection to weiner except as a satisfied customer.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-11-08 04:46
Jerry
Yes, I hated them, produces a horribly cold and lifeless sound. I couldn't get any center out of them. Thanks all the same.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-11-08 10:55
there's also a German brand called
"Foglietta"
i've never tried them but they are endorsed by some great players (both German system and Boehm- they make several different style reeds). Peter Pryzbylla (i'm not certain of spelling, sorry) works for them (or at least helped out on the web site) and he makes a lovely tone plus writes lots of interesting and worthwhile advice.
i've been meaning to try these out for some time now.
donald
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Author: William
Date: 2002-11-08 14:59
Once again, I will advocate what other's are also hinting at, *maybe it is your mouthpiece.* The last ime I saw Larry Combs (in a clinic session), he was asked "what kind of mpc he was using." He said his mpc was a Richard Hawkins custom model made especially for him. Asked about his signiture "Larry Combs" mouthpieces, he said that he stopped using his own "LC" years ago citing some (unremembered) displeasure with LeBlanc. At the time of this clinic, he said his current mouthpiece was a Richard Hawkins custom model made especially for Him. He was also playing on a Legere reed, but said that "(while) it is nice to know that you always have a reed in your case that will play, I would never use it with the Symphony (CSO)." For reeds, he uses VanDoren V12's, which he said that he "dumps (by the box) into a glass of water and then throws nine away." "I don't have time to work on them." BTW--for those of use that think we carry too much equipement around, Larry was packing two sets of clarinets (LeBlanc and Oehler) in two medium sized suitcases (not clarinet cases). He was on his way "downtown" (Chicago) on a Saturday morning.
My mouthpiece preference is a Kaspar (early Chicago) #14. Other mouthpieces that I have and like include a Greg Smith "Cicero Kaspar" model, a Richard Hawkins custom, a Charles Bay "Ithica" custom, and a more recent Charles Bay "kaspar" version. I do have a couple of LC#3's and K10's which I would classify as "intermediant" mouthpieces--"ok" but lacking focus of sound and restricted expressiveness.
Bottom Line--perhaps your are putting too much blame on reed and ignoring the mouthpiece and your embouchure configuration.
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