 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-24 14:52
Hi everyone. My teacher often talks about me switching to German clarinets... He says it may suit me, and, after looking at fingering charts, it makes SO much more sense to me.
Besides, I LOVE Sabine Meyer's sound...
Can anyone tell me the main differences, and any good reasons to 'make the switch'? I live in Australia... No-one here plays German clarinets, it's far too crazy for the conservatives.
PS> What are the prices on German instruments like? What is a good manufacturer to get, say, the R13 equivalent?
Thanks in advance guys!
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-10-24 15:57
A good German instrument (eg. Würlitzer) is a lot more expensive than an R13. I'm not sure of the exact price, but I would hazard a guess at around 5000 USD for a new Würlitzer, which is what most German players use.
One thing to think about is whether playing German instruments could limit your chances of getting a job in an Australian orchestra. In my orchestra our section is mixed (French and German systems), which is quite unusual. Most clarinet sections prefer to stick with the same system.
In terms of sound, I really don't think you need to play Würlitzer to sound like Sabine Meyer. (But I'm sure a lot of people would disagree). If you think the fingering suits you better, I suppose that's one reason to change. I find a much bigger change is the different mouthpiece and reed, which will take quite some getting used to.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-10-24 15:58
Last I knew one of the top makers was Wurlitzer
http://www.wurlitzerklarinetten.de/flash/home.html
I recall that the instruments are very expensive, as they are handmade and made to order. One of the options to switching to the german system is to go to the Reform-Boehm. Yamaha also makes one of these. This is basically the French style key system on a German bore. I am not sure why you might wish to make the change. You might wish to contact Greg Smith or Larry Combs of the Chicago Symphony since they use Wurlitzer clarinets in German works. Michele Zukofsky in Los Angeles made the switch years ago. You may want to consider the type of playing you will be doing. If you are in orchestras, you may want to consider pitch and blending issues, which will be more of a concern. For chamber and solo work, it may not matter. Keep us posted on your decision
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2002-10-24 16:13
Morrigan: There is a website that tells a lot about the Wurlitzer clarinets. They're great, but as one writer opined, you don't need to play on one to sound like S. Meyer. The is a valid opinion 'tho there are those who'd argue about it. Not matter, they are great, long-lasting and finely manufactured, hand-made clarinets. You'll find the website if you search under the name Wurlitzer, and maybe add clarinets.
[Snipped by the Webmaster. Earl, if you know about some instruments possibly for sale you'll have to contact the poster personally. Sorry. Mark C.]
Now, my former pupil, David Smeyers, a professor at the Hochschule in Cologne (Koln), Germany ("Das Klarinetten Duo" which has several CD's of avant garde clarinet music) has told me that in that country's Symphony Orchestras, etc., one must use the regular "Oehler system" Wurlitzers and that the Boehm system is frowned upon. I believe him, but if I were still active in performance, I would have purchased that set of Wurlitzers from my old pal Ray Papai four months ago.
I hope this and the rest of the information you're receiving will be of assistance.
All the best,
E.T.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-24 16:40
As a lifelong player of Albert (Oehler) system horns, my observation is that music is music and it's not so much the instrument as the player that make the music come out. I never in my entire 'career' ever even once encountered discrimination because of my instrument. You either can play pretty good or you need to work at it some more - no matter what Kind of instrument it is.
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2002-10-24 17:34
Ron B:
Sorry if you are offended. No offense was intended. I was only reporting what is common knowledge in Germany: play the Oehler system. I have a student who has a set of Buffets that were played at Queen Victoria's 50th year anniversary, as well as for the Cole Bros. European Circus tour! Made in the late 1800's, they are superb instruments and in pristine condition and I like the sound they possess. However, since I've spent a lifetime on the only system I knew when I was eleven years old, I naturally favor the fingerings of the Boehm system. I imagine that Wurlitzer made the "improved Boehm system" instruments to satisfy the market for Boehm system performers.
I believe Barenboim and probably a few other "conductors" insist that their clarinet sections play the Oehler System clarinets in certain orchestral literature, much like some "conductors" prefer the rotary valve trumpets. These things are strictly a matter of taste. I totally agree with you that if you play well, you can succeed on either system.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-24 18:13
Hi, Earl
I'm not at all 'offended'. For what? I understand that people have opinions and preferences, I was merely contributing my personal experience(s). Playing one system or another, in my time, was never (and is not now) anything worth noting. I know folks who play both systems and, again I emphasize in My experience, our goal has always been to make good music together or as soloists with little, if any, thought to what kind of horn we're playing.
I like improvisational playing, both listening and performing. I have also played concert settings, both band and orchestra, and understand that the conductor is the boss. I've never been required to play Boehm horns in either situation. I can play the Boehm system, although it's not my preference, but would do so if it were an issue.
Again, please, I take no offense by anyone's opinion or preference. I find the topic very interesting. I doubt it will ever be totally resolved in my lifetime. I guess that's what makes us so unique in our individualities.
I lived in Germany for three years by the way.
:)
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-10-24 21:55
Ron B wrote: "I've never been required to play Boehm horns in either situation."
--Ron, not to be a party poop but back when you served in the Air Force Band program at March AFB wern't they only auditioning/ hiring on the Boehm system? v/r KEN
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2002-10-24 22:12
Morrigan: If you're interested in talking about a set of Wurlitzer's "Improved Boehm System" clarinet, please write to me personally 'cause I've learned that one may not send information about "for sale" items on this site. You have my address; so, write if you're interested.
ADDENDA: I mentioned the Cole Bros. Circus European tour in connection with a set of very old Buffet "Albert System" clarinets. I had forgotten that it was the Wild Bill Cody Circus tour of Europe in which those clarinet were played back in the early 1900's!! Those instruments were left to my pupil by her Great Uncle and she's not at all interested in parting with them, by the way. They will end up kept in the family or someday donated to some worthy Museum of Historical Musical Instruments. You would not believe the excellent condition that they are in.
All the Best
E. Thomas
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-25 02:23
Morrigan: I have a Boehm instrument and a 24/6 Richard Keilwerth German instrument (the model just below, if you will, their simplest-keyed Oehler Clarinet) assembled in my office. They are located just a short distance from my computer table. I can play either of them with little preparation. I had never played a German-style instrument until a few months ago, and it learning to play it is truly fascinating. I didn't know my hands could stretch this way and that as they now need to do. The fingering differences are not at all any more difficult to me than was learning the Saxophone.
However, the tone is remarkably different. Having examined the "internals" on these instruments, there is little wonder that they do not sound alike. By the way, the Boehm Clarinet bears a Hite Premiere MP and a Fibracell medium soft reed, while the German Clarinet has on it the stock MP with a Vandoren White Master #2. The upper overtones seem much more rich with trhe German instrument, and as time passes, it is becoming easier for me to play it at will. I do enjoy its sound, and I delight in listening to the contrasting sounds of the two Clarinets.
You do not need to learn German Clarinet on a Wurlitzer any more than you need to learn Viola on a Guarneri. Perhaps get yourself a good less expensive German-system instrument and play it occasionally as I do to accustom yourself to the idea. After a while, a better instrument may seem to be a good idea. While I found my R. Keilwerth through eBay in the US, you may have good luck in looking at ebay.de for German Clarinets. It might cost 50 Euros or so to ship it from Germany to Australia (just a guess, as it's about 27 Euros to ship one from Germany to California).
Good luck on implementing some sort of plan to expand your experience.
Regards,
John
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-25 02:59
Thanks for all the info. I'm astounded everyone mentions Wurlitzers... I said R13 or equivalent though! I KNOW Wurlitzers very well! I like the case too, I saw it when I met Sabine Meyer earlier this year.
I was just asking about German clarinets because, as I said in my original posting, my teacher often tells me I may like the German reed/mp/bore combination better than the French because he says my playing style may just match the German sound. Also, the fingerings are a little similar to recorder; my first instrument BEFORE clarinet.
Also, I intend of working throughout Europe someday, as I have a European passport, and this is where the music REALLY is. I'd fit right in on a German instrument!
I asked the question about the actual brands because if I DO decide to make this switch, I'd obviously have to sell my R13 and my spare R13 to be able to afford a new German instrument, and Wurlitzer is DEFINITELY out of the question! I was just wondering about professional yet affordable instruments.
Thanks for your help guys!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-25 05:26
Hi, Ken
You're not being a party poop, why would I think that??? I have nothing to be defensive about and I'm still convinced, in my own degenerated opinion, that to a general audience all clarinets look and sound alike.
To set the record straight, I was never at March AFB. I don't know where March AFB is. I auditioned at Parks AFB, '55 or '56 (I'd have to look up exact dates), a basic training base with no airplanes:) outside Hayward, CA. I was auditioned, one to one by a (career) master sergeant clarinet player while I was still in basic training using my trusty old Carl Fischer horn. I played scales and sight read some concert stuff. The director was a warrant officer (trumpet). After basic, I was stationed right there :( until about a year later when they closed the base and I shipped out to Germany In Germany I was assigned to the European headquarters band (686th) outside Wiesbaden where I served out the rest of my enlistment. I bought a new Moennig Bros. (Albert) instrument while I was there.
I'm sure things have changed and auditions and such are different now than when I was part of the, at that time, peacetime military. Keep in mind that we're talking about half a century ago. As primitive as this may sound to some we still had to play okay to stay in the band. There were yearly, more or less, proficeincy exams, given by the Lieutenant band director (trumpet) and master sergeant clarinetist -- usual stuff; play scales from memory, sight read a piece or two and answer basic theory questions. Most of us preferred our own horn rather than a G.I. issue instrument as there were no regulations about it and no one questioned anyone's preference in that respect. Just do a good job, don't get too far out of line and, if you re-enlist often enough, you might become a master sergeant. One hitch was enough for me
I could play Boehm system well enough at that time to possibly qualify but, since I wasn't required to, I always did it (and performances of course) with the Albert horn. I was first chair, second clarinet at time of discharge. No one pooped the party then and no one's pooped it now
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Author: Andy
Date: 2002-10-25 07:38
Morrigan:
If you are in Melbourne then you should talk to Craig Hill (maybe he is your teacher?) about the switch. When I was talking to him at the clarinet conference in July he told me that he was about to invest in a pair of Wurlitzers and would be trying them out in the MSO and if they blended with the other clarinet sounds in the orchestra he would keep on using them.
If you need his contact details, send me an email.
Cheers,
Andy
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-10-25 07:47
Morrigan wrote: "I'm astounded everyone mentions Wurlitzers... I said R13 or equivalent though!"
When you say R13, I assume you are referring to "top of the range" instruments. Würlitzer would be a German equivalent.
<<<<< "Also, I intend of working throughout Europe someday, as I have a European passport, and this is where the music REALLY is. I'd fit right in on a German instrument!"
You would only fit right in in Germany and Austria. The rest of Europe use Boehm clarinets, except Holland where they play mostly Reform-Boehm.
Why don't you try using a German mouthpiece on your Boehm clarinet for a while. It is possible. Some students do this in Holland before they can afford to buy a set of Würlitzers. It will give you an idea of the reed and mouthpiece, before you make the full switch!
<<<<<<< "my teacher often tells me I may like the German reed/mp/bore combination better than the French because he says my playing style may just match the German sound"
I'm not sure I understand that whole concept. Could you clarify what you mean by "playing style" and "German sound"?
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-25 08:12
Robert
R13 are not top of the range. I would compare Wurlitzers to Rossi or Eaton, in the Boehm world.
I was unaware that only Germany and Austra use German instruments - I've been under the knowledge Holland is the biggest on German systems (outside of Germany) from a friend who conducts over there.
"I'm not sure I understand that whole concept. Could you clarify what you mean by "playing style" and "German sound"?"
What, you're telling me the only difference is the keys? You honestly can't hear a incredibly, massive, un-missable difference in the sound? It's as big as the difference between American and English players!
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-10-25 09:45
Morrigan,
Most professional Buffet players play R13, RC or Festival. Most professional German players play Würlitzer. This is the equivalent that I'm referring to. There is of course a big difference in price. In any case, I don't consider Rossi or Eaton superior to a good Buffet.
In Holland most professionals use "reform Boehm" Würlitzers. These are German bore with Boehm system fingering. Your conductor friend is mis-informed- I know this because I used to work in Holland.
I didn't say that the only difference between German and Boehm was the keys. (Read my previous 2 postings properly) I just don't understand the concept that your "playing style may just match the German sound". What is this "style" that your teacher is referring to? Are you trying to say that you have a German playing style? And what is that exactly?
To be honest I can't hear an "incredibly, massive, un-missable difference in the sound" between German and Boehm clarinets. What I can hear is a huge difference in sound between different players. Sabine Meyer doesn't sound anything like Karl Leister, just as Larry Combs doesn't sound anything like Emma Johnson, even though they play the same systems.
Here are some more things for you to think about:
- A friend of mine studied with Karl Leister in Berlin. She plays Boehm system. In one lesson she went along with a pair of Würlitzers, and Leister didn't even notice. He was quite angry when he SAW that she was playing Würlitzer, even though he hadn't heard it.
- In my orchestra we have a mixed clarinet section (3 Boehm, 2 German) but we don't have any problems blending the sound between German and Boehm.
- Karl Leister told me that Barenboim said he couldn't hear the difference between when the clarinet players in Chicago use German or Boehm instruments. (Incidentally- I'd love it if Greg Smith could respond to this. Did Barenboim really demand that you play German, or is this a myth?)
- Nicolas Harnoncourt was amazed to discover that I play Boehm after we'd been rehearsing with him for two weeks.
Great conductors can't hear the difference. Some great German clarinet players can't hear the difference. In my opinion, it's how you blow the thing that really makes the difference. Sabine Meyer would still sound exactly like Sabine Meyer even if she played Boehm clarinets.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-25 12:42
I disagree. German instruments sound different to French, just as French sound different to English.
I don't understand how you can't understand what playing style is. And I couldn't be bothered explaining it, this post has really frustrated me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-25 15:38
Morrigan,
It isn't as obvious, even to experienced players, as you seem to think it is. Perhaps you've been taught that there <b>is</b> an easily discernable and distinctly different sound between regions, and perhaps there has been one, and perhaps in some areas there is still one, but things have been amalgamating for some time now and there's a lot more controversy over regional and "schools" than you might think. Consider this posting as an educational experience, and perhaps learning that teachers don't and can't know <b>everything</b> about all subjects.
See Dan Leeson's well-written article http://www.ocr.woodwind.org/articles/Leeson/leeson4.html and perhaps use that as a beginning dialoge with your teacher.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-10-25 16:00
Ron B: My profound apologies, I must have gotten you confused with another fellow alumni...after 24 years as a "bluesuiter" names, faces and contacts run together. Your short career stats made for interesting reading and brought back some wild times (the Squids aren't the only one's raising holy heck). I too enjoyed a big slice of the pie seeing the world on Uncle Sam's nickel, including 6 years in Germany and 4 in Japan. Things sure have changed audition-wise since you swelled the ranks. That's great the horn system rules of engagement were more liberal and there was actually individual choice. That sure wouldn't happen today in that little corner of the music world, it's a Boehm system or there's the door. I remember a number of years back we had a German national audition on a Mueller system. He played great, certainly well enough to be hired but they rejected him because he wasn't/couldn't play a Boehm system. As I don't know much about Albert/Oehler system(s) I did some quick self-education. I had no idea they're also available/keyed in Bb and A so that would explain the justifiable transition and color comparison.
I can only add to the thread discussion by concurring with a few others here; I've found it's ultimately more the player, concept, background, influences and applied style than the equipment itself. There are subtle shades of difference but it's equally true the more advanced the player the "farther they get away from the horn", and given a short time to adjust they'll sound like themselves on any set-up whether a $5,000 Wurlitzer, Opus, R-13 or cheap plastic Vito. Stay chili y'all. v/r KEN
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-25 16:26
Dear Freinds:
After having worked and played in ensembles orchestrally for 20 years, I think that the overiding opinion is one can sound like a German clarinet on a boehmn and vice versa. There should also be a calmness in dealing with the subject, and from vaious teachers I have studied with they all state the two clarinet symstems sound far more alike then the bassoon ones(french and German.)
Conductors like Otto Klemperer and Karajan worked with the Philharmonia with players like Bernard Walton and Jack Brymer(Royal PHil) and found not one iota lacking in the tone of the Boehmn system clarinet being used. (I am quoting a concversation with Hugh Bean who was Concertmaster and knew Mr. Walton.)
Further it is probably the player who senses the greatest difference and no matter what instrument one still has to make the music....
Sincerely,
David Dow
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Author: SteveT
Date: 2002-10-25 16:59
If your are interested in the german sound, you might also consider trying a Selmer Signature, which has noticably darker sound than either of a Buffet or a Leblanc--when I tried one out, even my friends who don't play the clarinet could easily hear the difference. The Signature was not my cup of tea, but I have heard from others that its sound is comparable to a Wurlitzer.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-25 18:02
Well, Ken, I don't mind -- I got quite confused some time ago and still haven't got it quite right:)
Please, no apology necessary. It's a big world and none of us can be expected to remember everything, much less every-ONE who ever crossed our paths. I also enjoyed the European tour Uncle Same provided, as I'm sure countless others have as well. Never could have afforded it on my own. It's interesting comparing our impressions of world experiences and how it changes as time goes by. (I hope) my attitude has mellowed over the years.
I've never met anyone, no matter what instrument they played primarily, who didn't sound like themselves. The language of music is as personal as an individual's voice... very much like a choir, in my opinion; they're all quite different yet they all blend so beautifully.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-26 03:51
Mark: I simply meant that I, personally, can hear huge differences between 'schools' of playing. People articulate differently, play forte differently, and use their fingers differently. Everyone has their unique sound, and I feel that some come under wider groups of sounds, if you will. I mean, take Emma Johnson's recording of the Weber, and then Antony Pay's. They sound very different, right? They're using very different instruments!
Also, I've been lead by a very helpful person to looking at Amati clarinets. Anyone had any experiences with these?
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-10-26 11:44
"I mean, take Emma Johnson's recording of the Weber, and then Antony Pay's. They sound very different, right? They're using very different instruments!"
...and different embouchures and different oral cavities and, quite possibly, a very different concept of clarinet tone.
Do you really think that the instrument is the most significant variable at play here?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-26 14:11
Morrigan wrote:
>
> No, but it makes such a huge difference.
LOL!
I've heard Tony Pay playing replicas of 18th century instruments where I had no clue that they were missing 90% of the keys that we're used to, and it sounded just like a modern clarinet (I figure Tony's made a pact with the devil, though ;^).
Morrigan, if we ever meet, I'd like to give you Dan Leeson's test with a different selection of pieces & players. I assume you read the articles, so you know what I mean. I think you'd probably shock yourself.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-10-27 05:16
Morrigan...As to your inquiry of Amati clarinets:
The new professional line of Amati clarinets (the 600 series) have been very positively reviewed by both John McAulay and myself.
In my (our) opinion these clarinets (the 600 series) represent a quality product, with careful workmanship to detail, nice coloration, and a marked smoothness between individual notes and different registers.
Here are a few different reviews of Amati clarinets which you may wish to read:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=78073&t=78073
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=79950&t=79950
Now, very much on the correct path, Amati has definitely become a major player in the clarinet industry.
These instruments, dollar for dollar, represent a bargain in comparison to other manufacturer's prices. They are worth serious consideration.
Perhaps it should now be called the "Big 5"...GBK
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Author: james
Date: 2002-10-27 09:52
I know im a little late in putting my say... which i don't even know matters that much becuase I am a senior in HS. Until the last year or two I had been obsessed with the equipment i had been playing on. It really took some maturity on my part (and a whole lot of money after buying an opus and switching back to buffet) that your sound and the way you play is just what you make of it. Yes there are different "schools" of clarinet playing. But let me tell you if you mixed the brands, the systems the reeds, whatever you want to mix, those schools stillwill sound different from one another...
Since the chicago symphony is my "orchestra of worship" and own hundreds of cd's of the cso, i would have to say i haven't noticed much difference if any in the section in all these years. You can't tell from the recordings when Mr. Combs switched to leblanc, so i really don't think you would be able to tell if they switched to german system horns for a while. I really feel sorry for people who feel they need to emulate someone's set up in order to be a good clarinetist or be like a clarinetist they admire. I dont' remember who said it but i will try to repeat it correctly.. You can try to copy ones sound but doing whatever you feel necessary, but just like a a cassette tape copy, it will never be as good as the original.
-james
PS... sorry for any grammar errors, it is the middle of the night
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-27 16:54
Morrigan wrote:
>
> Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Why is that, Morrigan? It's not a threat by any means; it's a test that someone who is very sure of themselves should take and see the results. Perhaps to your ears their will be an overwhelming differences and you will surprise those that don't hear such huge differences; perhaps there won't be as much difference as you think and you will surprise yourself.
In either case we'd learn something, so such tests are not to be avoided but embraced. It's how we learn.
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Author: SteveT
Date: 2002-10-28 02:32
When people refer to a "german" clarinet sound, I assume they mean a darker sound. After reading this thread, as an experiment, I pulled out three CDs of the Mozart concerto, by Sabine Meyer, David Shifrin and the late Robert Marcellus. It had been a while since I had listened to any of these, and I had a friend load them into my CD player so that I could not see which CD was playing. Solely on the basis of the dark tone quality, I mistakenly thought thought that the Shifrin recording was by Sabine Meyer; his tone quality seemed to me to be darker than Meyer's. While Shifrin was using a specially made extended range clarinet on the recording, the tone quality on his recording was consistent with my recollection of how he sounded the few times that I have heard him play in person.
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Author: james
Date: 2002-10-28 03:53
Hey! Well i talked to john yeh tonight. He played a concerto with the CYSO encore orchestra. He told me that the CSO director suggested that they try german system horns. Nothing demading or anything like that. They only used the german horns once in a while...
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2002-10-28 08:17
Hi Morrigan,
Some input from Holland:
Indeed most profs play Wurlitzer. The Reform Boehm system is widely adapted, some "older" players still use the Oehler system.
About the German R13 equivalent:
Students who cannot afford a Wurlitzer play mostly on a normal French instrument (so not a cheaper German instrument!) but with a German style mpc (adapted for French clarinets) and German reeds.
Typical setup: Buffet RC or Festival with Viotto N1+2/VD White Master 3. This works very well and gives a German style sound and feeling. (You can easily imitate Sabine Meyer with this setup.)
Note: The R13 does not "exist" here.
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