 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Elison
Date: 2002-10-24 03:19
I got lucky and won an auction on e-bay for a new (old stock) Leblanc LL with articulated G# and fork Bb. According to the seller it was manufactured in 1983 and never played. When it arrived in the mail today, the keyed sections were still sealed in plastic bags. I oiled it with the Doctor’s special bore oil and applied his cork grease to soften up the corks. It really plays nicely. I’ve only played it a couple of times today, a half-hour each, but it seems to have a richer, darker tone quality than my 26-year old Leblanc Pete Fountain Model. However, it seems to play just as loud with better intonation. Needless to say, I’m quite pleased with this new horn. I think I got lucky.
A couple of questions:
Does anyone know when Leblanc discontinued the LL model?
Does anyone know why the major clarinet manufacturers stopped making clarinets with articulated G# and fork Bb? The only one I’ve found with these keys in a new instrument from the “top four” is the Leblanc Big Easy Pete Fountain model.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-10-24 05:05
Congratulations on a good buy!
The forked Bb is rarely if ever needed and adds to the cost and complication of an instrument. It can be a pain to adjust as well. I'd rather not feel a ring under a finger if I could feel a bare hole in the wood instead.
The main advantage of an articulated G#/C# is for playing in-tune trills, rarely needed. The mechanism adds a little cost to the manufacturing and, in some cases, puts the hole in an inconvenient spot right through the tenon. It also eliminates the alternate long F4 fingering which is sometimes very nice. An extra key for a right hand duplicate note is also added, at least on some clarinets. Good luck on the instrument!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-24 08:53
I second Wes's suggestion that the forked Bb/Eb adds complexity for little gain. Hety, those notes already have several good fingerings already. I have an otherwise very nice Richard Keilwerth Boehm-system instrument with that feature added, and I do wish they had not included it. Adjustment of this part of the machine is a real b%#@*.
Amati is one of the manufacturers currently building "Full-Boehm" professional-level instruments in both Bb and A pitches. GBK has one of these Amati A Clarinets and he has written very highly of it here on the BB. (I have an Amati Bb Clarinet which is not full Boehm; I think it's a fine instrument).
Regards,
John
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-24 15:31
John -
The LL was Leblanc's top model from the late 1950s through, I think, the mid-60s. It's still made, particularly in the odd sizes (Ab, D). As I recall, the bore is larger than the Buffet R-13 and is not polycylindrical.
I've played some very good LLs. I love the keywork -- much better for my hands than Buffet.
It sounds like you got a good one.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-10-24 16:07
Note also that if you look at Leblanc's online brochures that you can order some of their instruments with the special mechanisms.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-10-24 16:35
Leblanc still makes them in Bb and A, don't they. I see the 1176 LL still listed in their catalog.
I have an LL A clarinet made in the 70s and am quite happy with it.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-24 19:08
I also agree that you have a very good LeBlanc. You [or have someone] might check the bore diameters [cylindrical?] of the upper joint, if .590" [15.0 mm] you have [IMHO] another "clone" of the highly advertised Pete Fountain, Dynamic 2 [or H] series of [yes] the '50-'70+ vintage LeB's. It's my thot that P F liked the fork Eb/Bb [not badly needed] and the artic. C#/G# [giving much better notes, via good tonehole location] so thats why all of these including the Big Easy [as above] are so equipped. Enjoy, Don
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Author: John Elison
Date: 2002-10-24 21:27
Hello everyone….. Thanks for all the great input….
Okay, based on Don’s suggestion, I measured the bore and it comes out a little larger than I expected at about 0.585-in to 0.587-in. It’s supposed to be 0.582-in. The bore also does not appear to have been polished. Perhaps it came out larger than expected so they didn’t want to do anything to enlarge it further. As far as it being a Pete Fountain model, it has the two opposing L’s stamped on the upper joint right above the Leblanc label. Actually, I also own a Pete Fountain model (1610, I think) and its bore measures a full 0.590-in to 0.593-in. Furthermore, the LL’s upper joint is nearly a tenth of an inch shorter than the Pete Fountain’s upper joint. Interestingly, the lower joints appear to be identical in length as well as key positions. Incidentally, the model number for this LL is 1187 according to the warranty registration card.
I looked at Leblanc’s downloadable brochures and they do list the model 1176s LL in Bb. However, they only list an 1176AbS under “Harmony Clarinets” on their website. They definitely don’t list the model 1187 anymore. The Pete Fountain model seems to be the only one with an articulated G# and forked Bb. I don’t think Buffet and Selmer make these key configurations now, either.
I played the LL some more today and it plays much better than my old Pete Fountain model. Of course, my Pete Fountain model probably needs refurbishment, but I can’t remember that it ever played quite as smoothly and easily as this LL. The notes just seem to pop into place on the LL and the key action feels faster and more comfortable. I think I’ll keep it.
Now the question is what should I do with my old Pete Fountain model? Should I have it refurbished at a cost of around $300 and see if it outplays the LL? Or should I sell it as is and possibly buy an Amati ACL 604 II? I really would like to have more than one clarinet and I also have gotten accustomed to those extra keys. What do you think? If I spent $300 on the Pete Fountain model and then decide to sell it, do you think I could recoup the $300 in the sale, or should I just sell it as is, now? It is definitely still quite playable.
Thanks for your advice and comments. This is a fantastic bulletin board.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-10-25 04:56
John...JMcAulay purchased an Amati ACL 602 this past year, and has been very pleased with it.
(I added an Amati ACL675 full Boehm A clarinet to my inventory as well)
Both instruments have been reviewed by us in previous posts.
Here is JMcAulay's impression of the ACL602:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=79950&t=79950
Perhaps if he reads this thread, he will add some new thoughts after having had the clarinet for a while...GBK
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-10-25 13:44
I've owned a few LLs and liked them very much. They do have a slightly larger bore than the Opus or Concerto models, but have excellent intonation and are loved by sax players and other woodwind doublers. They're particularly nice sounding with jazz and big band music.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-25 15:02
A fine, comprehensive post, John E. I have an old LeB "wall-poster", will find it and look, it dates from about 1975 [I think], and includes the PF and LL horns [with model #'s], but not my L7, which is cyl. and about .580" bore. My thot is that L was trying to satisfy ALL demands. I like them all, also. Luck, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-25 17:44
Okay, GBK, I'm pleased to make a few comments -- although also a bit reluctant, as I'll mention later. John, I have never played a Leblanc "Pete Fountain" model, so I can't comment regarding the relative merits of it and an Amati 600-series instrument. I have been a Leblanc fan for fifty years or so, and an old Symphonie was my favorite stick for a very long time. My usually-played instrument now is a Vito V40, a good combat instrument, and it has that Leblanc "feel" that I like.
But regarding the Amati 600-series instruments: I am convinced, and I believe GBK shares my view (although he has never specifically said so) that these instruments are the best bargains *by far* in the Clarinet world today. I have not played an Amati student-grade instrument at all, and hence will not address them. But I have owned an ACL-602 for several months (bought not long before GBK bought his ACL-675 Full-Boehm A-pitch), and I find it to be a remarkable instrument. In Amati Bb professional models, by the way, the ACL-601 is the *Boehm ordinaire*, the -602 has the added left pinky G#/D# key, the -604 has that key plus the forked Bb/Eb and the articulated C#/G# key, while the -605 has all of the above plus low Eb.
The Amati price structure is rather strange (at least to me). The price difference between the ACL-601 and -602 is truly negligible, in the "Lunch for two at McDonalds" category. The -604, however, commands a big price jump: it's a full 40% higher than the -601. The -605, curiously, is not even five percent more than the -604. I have always assumed that the price differences are based on both added manufacturing costs on an incremental basis as well as quantities demanded by customers. And now that the basic financial mechanics are addressed, why buy one of these instruments at all?
It feels good, it sounds good, it looks good. The appearance is exceptional, as if handled by crafters who really care about what they're doing. The quality of the wood is equal to any recent Boehm instrument I've seen -- except the bell is of a bit rougher-grain material. The keywork is nicely finished and very responsive, and after several months of irregular usage, I have had to adjust one key (the L3 Eb/Bb key was binding slightly and occasionally). Other than that, the Clarinet has given no trouble at all. And it is a delight to play.
Intonation is excellent. At least, it is with some of the mouthpieces I've tried, and I am not completely satisfied yet that I'm through with the MP selection process. Hite Premiere works quite well, Vandoren B45 does a good job, but my favorite on it is a Woodwind G7*, which is coincidentally the same model I used for a great number of years on my Leblanc. I do use a rather flimsy reed, generally preferring a #2 or #2½, as I prefer great flexibility. By the way, I have never tried the stock MP that came with the instrument -- maybe not a great idea, eh?
Curiously, the throat Bb (with A key and Register key) is the best I have ever been able to play on any instrument. Even on my old favorite Leblanc I developed a practice of using the A key and side key whenever Bb was required, unless it made for an absolutely gruesome shift from or to adjacent notes. On this Amati, that is not required at all. My only difficulty with the instrument is that the extreme upper altissimo is difficult at best, impossible at times. That, of course, relates in part to my use of the softer reeds... but I've been able to reach C7 on other instruments with little problem using a #2 reed and similar MP. If I can never hit those notes again for the rest of my life, it will be a very acceptable price to pay for the breadth of goodness I otherwise find in this instrument.
And now, here's why it's a bit hard to talk about the Amati. It makes me feel weird posting this information, because as you can see, I think very highly of this Clarinet. And while maybe I'm just some old retread who plays for fun, GBK is a real-live professional who enjoys his Amati perhaps even more than I do mine, and he has until now played nothing but Buffet Clarinets for forty years. It rather disturbs me to see postings on the BB from people who agonize over whether to pay $700 for a B-11, or some such, and they're going crazy trying out brands and models till they are blue in the face. Hey: try something different. For the same price area, you can get an Amati, which is in my opinion (and that of GBK) a truly professional-grade instrument. No joke, no kidding, no doubt. And if a trip to Europe is in your plans, drop by the Amati store in Prague and buy an instrument from Mr. Parkan. You can get a truly superior Clarinet at for price you will not believe.
Regards,
John
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Author: John Elison
Date: 2002-10-25 19:44
Hi John,
Thanks for the interesting and comprehensive reply. You’ve sold me on Amati. Actually, I also read GBK’s and your response in a previous thread, and that got me thinking about Amati, especially after seeing they had the key configuration I like. I think I will probably buy one.
I’m not sure how you calculated the price difference, though. If you check out Graham’s Music, they list the ACL-601 for $750 and the ACL-604, which is the one I want, for $812. Looks like a great deal to me.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-26 01:28
John: I was comparing prices from a different source. You're quite right: if the ACL-604 is the one you want, $812 is surely a good price on an instrument of its quality. By the way, I have played a -605, and that was the big event that convinced me to buy an Amati. The -605 was remarkable, but it was also quite heavy. I would have bought one with L4 G#/D# and articulated C#/G#, less the fork Eb/Bb, but that configuration is not available. So I got the -602. Good luck on your selection.
In passing, I have considered an Amati ACL-351. This is their only C-pitch Clarinet model. Although it does have undercut tone holes and other such nice things, I've never tried any of their intermediate Clarinets (300 series) nor have I heard any reports, thus I'm a bit reluctant to run right out and spend the money. If they made a C-pitch Clarinet in the 600 series, I would own one by now.
Regards,
John
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