 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-10-23 03:25
A while ago Janet posted for help in identification of her clarinet <a href="http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=92621&t=92621">(click here)</a>. I helped her to identify the horn. It turned out it wasn't what she was after so we worked a purchase deal. Janet is a very nice and honest person so it went smoothly and the horn arrived today.
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/1.jpg" border="3" align="right">I thought it would be interesting to share a few interesting things I have found on this 1905 Full Boehm A Buffet and compare it to my 1925 Full Boehm Bb Buffet.<br><br>
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/2.jpg" border="3" align="left">Look closely at the A keys. The Bb has no adjusting screw. The A has a tiny screw drilled right through the key, unlike the modern ones which are soldered onto the side of the key. This clarinet is from around 1905 and so I suspect this may be a modification.<br><br>
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/3.jpg" border="3" align="right">There are significant differences in the articulated G#-C# keys.<br><br>
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/4.jpg" border="3" align="left">The Bb has a little dot on the G#-C# key and the A has it on the C"-F# key. This is an interesting attachment of the spring. They drilled right through the key.<br><br>
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/5.jpg" border="3" align="right">Here is the interesting C#-F# key spring, you can also see that extra key on the right.<br><br>
<img src="http://pages.sbcglobal.net/thorlick/images/FB/6.jpg" border="3" align="left">In the keywork you can see the definite family relationship. The horns are 20 years apart and almost identical.
I appologize if I have bored you, but hope this has interested some of you. Janet thought this horn was in excellent condition. I find it needs all the pads and a complete overhaul... so I am trying to decide which Sneezey sponsor can best do the job!
Terry Horlick
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-10-23 03:34
Sorry about the disjointed look of that post. I tried to position the pictures so they would interfere with the text and goofed it up.
I think you can get the idea however. That third picture says "there are significant differences between the articulated G#-C# keys".
TH
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-10-23 15:11
Beautiful Terry...
How do they sound?
-S
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-23 16:34
Terry -
Great photos, and a very interesting comparison. Although you can't make an exact comparison between a Bb and an A clarinet, there are a number of small differences in the keywork:
The trill key guide has the pre-R-13 triangular shape formed from flat stock, but the sides are longer and the tip is sharper on the 1925 Bb. I think the location, next to the Ab key on the 1925 and above it on the 1905 A, is due to the greater length of the instrument rather than a design change.
The A key finger touch on the 1925 has a teardrop shape, whereas it's more lozenge-shaped on the 1905. This may not be a consistent thing, because, according to Kalmen Opperman, Buffet keys at that time were individually filed out of solid blanks, and each workman (they were all men) had his own characteristic style. Also, each workman make all the keys for a particular instrument and marked his work with his particular sign. You can see the "S" mark on the bottom of the 1905 F#/C# key. They're not always visible, since some workmen put their marks inside a key cup.
The Ab key finger touch on the 1925 has a relatively short part where it's soldered to the tube, compared with the 1905, which goes the full length of the tube. Again, this may be the individual keymaker's style.
I've seen the tiny adjusting screw through the throat Ab key strut a couple of times, but not on a Buffet. I agree with Terry that it's probably a later alteration. It leaves very little metal on either side of the screw and would be a weak mechanical design that I wouldn't expect to see on a Buffet. Also, the top of the strut is flattened off. Original Buffet work would have that area rounded.
On both instruments, the tube holding the left index finger ring and pad extends above the strut attachment. On the 1925, it also extends below the ring attachment, but on the 1905 it does not. (On the R-13, there is no extension at either end.)
The finger holes on the 1925 have a flat surface and a squared-off inside rim. On the 1905, they are slightly dished with the inner rim rounded slightly. This seems to be a characteristic difference. The rings themselves also are a little different, with the 1905 design also a bit dished and also a little more tightly fit around the hole.
The 1905 forked Eb/Bb mechanism uses the flute-style doughnut key. For more on this mechanism, see http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=42518&t=42410. The 1925 has the more modern design, with the small pad located between the left middle and ring finger holes. However, this is unusual because the strut is mounted relatively high on the tube and curves down to the pad cup.
The articulated C#/G# mechanisms are quite different. The 1905 has a relatively simple, elegant design. Unfortunately, it requires a "Dorus" design, with a short left little finger touch mounted on a vertical rod. (This was invented for the flute by a maker named Dorus.) The feel of the key is not good - it rotates to much. Also, you can see that it gets in the way of the placement of the hole, making it smaller and higher than it should be acoustically. By 1925, Buffet had gone to a different design that preserved the longer lever and permitted a lower, larger hole. Mechanically, it wasn't nearly as good. I have a 1939 Bb with this design, and I think there's a second, rotating lever mounted beneath the key rods next to the C#/G# pad. This extra mechanical complication makes the action mushy. Also, the adjustment is very tricky, since you have to get the articulated mechanism exactly even with both the left-hand (index and ring finger) forked Eb/Bb and the standard two-index-finger forked Eb/Bb. Also, note that the strut for the C#/G# pad is bent upward at the pad cup end. This is characteristic of the Buffets of this period. Later, the bend is very slight or totally absent.
The brass screw going all the way through the C#/G# touch, and also the right little finger F#/C# touch, is absolutely characteristic, as is the flat spring anchored by each screw.
An unusual feature on each instrument is that the extra sliver key between the right index and ring fingers operates a completely separate C#/G# key and hole. Buffet made a number of keywork experiments during this period. This one is made possible because the body of each instrument is in one piece. I've never seen it on an instrument with upper and lower joints. This sliver key on the 1925 is noticeably shorter than on the 1905. It was probably ground down because it was getting in the way of finger action. This was unnecessary on the 1905, because those holes are farther apart on the A clarinet.
The left little finger keys have slightly varying shapes, but this may be due to the individual keymaker and bending to suit the preferences of the individual owners. Note the left F/C lever is relatively higher on the 1905. Also, the left hand G#/Eb touch is teardrop-shaped on the 1905 and lozenge-shaped on the 1925 - the opposite of the shape difference on the throat A keys.
The low Eb key on the 1905 is shinier and more elongated than the other right-hand little finger keys. There seems to be a solder joint where the key touch meets the part that's soldered to the tube, and it doesn't have the arched and pointed shape of the upper-level keys. I suspect the owner may have found the original key touch too short and have had it ground flat and a longer touch made for it. The underside shot shows a solder joint that looks to have some extra solder where the tab is between the low E and low Eb keys is attached to the low E key. This kind of visual flaw would never appear on Buffet keywork. The picture doesn't show all of what appears to be an initial stamped on the bottom of the low Eb key. It would be unusual to have the keymaker stamp two adjacent keys. If the Eb key is also stamped "S", you should look to see if the stamping is exactly the same. If it's not, that's a sure sign the key has been replaced.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-10-24 02:06
Ken,
Wow! I didn't expect this kind of thoroughness. Had I known I wouldn't have crunched the pidture files down so much for a faster load, but left more resolution in them I would be happy to send any photos of any parts which interest you, drop me a request and your e-mail address.
You are just about 100% on. You nailed that extra mechanism on the 1925 articulated C#-G#. There is a little rocker and there is a tab which extends to the arrangement under the side trill keys. This must be the most difficult part to adjust as it is the only one which had a problem after the overhaul. I have a single piece of paper in there on top of the cork as a shim to make everything even out and work correctly... I did that instead of having to send the Bb across the country for a little adjustment.
That b-Bb shiny key is a bit of an enigma It's "S" is the same size and type face as the "S" on the E-B key, but it is definitley from a different stamp set as the upper loop is ever so slightly smaller on the Eb-Bb key. The shiny differnce is really because Janet took it to a music store for an aprasial and the shop man said these keys are easy to shine up...See! That is the key he attacked. The solder evidence you mention is a bit equivical since the bar under the two keys is soldered to the E-B key with the Eb-Bb just resting on it. Therefore a replacement would not require any soldering. The same key on the Bb appears to extend just as far setting up an identical pattern for the five touches in that area. In short, the solder joints in the are are clean and precise just like on the Bb horn so perhaps ghe whole key-tube and pad cup assembly was replaced. Your point of the different stampings on neighboring keys is very interesting.
I never imagined that there were so many differences as these horns evolved, and didn't dream there were folks who studied this. Man, you should be on the FBI stolen clarinet identification and recovery forensics team!
As for the sound, I am quite happy with the 1925 Bb. In fact I liked it as well as my 1954 early R-13... so much so that I just sold the R-13 and kept the FB. It does have some nagging intonation problems I have to compensate for. I would dearly love to find someone with undercutting/adjustment experience who could tackle improving the intonation of the Bb horn. The A is a bit of an unknown. There are several notes I can get to play with a promising sound which is close to the Bb. The pads are so bad that much of the horn is unplayable so an honest evaluation must wait pending completion of an overhaul.
As stated above I am looking for someone to do the overhaul. I had the Bb done by Sue Shaake at WW in Indiana and she did a marvelous job, especially on the rings which had problems. You didn't detect it, but she cut some open and re-sized and soldered them to get a perfect fit. Don't ask which ones, because try as I might I cannot tell. I really don't want to acid etch the rings just to figure where she did her majic. I would use her for this horn, only she is more than half a continent away and I want to go closer. The Brannens decline to work on anything earlier than 1955. I am waiting to hear from Clark Fobes. I am pulling for him because I can jump in the car and be on his doorstep in just 3 1/2 or 4 hours. Anyone with ideas on other folks who can do the overhaul nicely please let me know. Linda Brannen has suggested checking with Francois Klock... I just have to figure out how to find him.
Thanks for your input, Terry
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-10-24 02:09
Ken, I forgot to say take the "nospam-" off of my e-mail address. I now do that and recommend that all you readers do the same. Since starting that I now rarely get spam or viruses sent to me. That is down from at least two viruses and four or five junk mails a day at the worst time.
So send to thorlick@sbcglobal.net
Terry
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-10-24 04:19
Terry you're knowledge of URL #101 is impressive!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-24 21:18
Fine analyses of the complex keywork above!! A good friend , [a cl "fiend"] got a 17/6 and a 20/7 Buffet from EBAY on back and asked me to make them playable [my having several F B's]. I did , but finding the C#/G# mech. well worn, beyond my skills, he went to a pro, who did little more than I, no new parts from B. We agreed that in that time period, Selmer [have 2] and Penzel-Mueller [have one+] had much better artic. mech. I was glad to see use of the second LJ banana key with its individual pad-cup [like my old Pruefer 19/7] so well shown in those great pics!! Many TKS, Don
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The Clarinet Pages
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