 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-10-21 11:58
I asked someone about where to find these after I read a post from a while ago about reeds. Someone suggested to put silica gell packets in a sealed plastic container. So I got some out of bottles of tablets. My question is how many is generally needed? I would think 2 max..
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-10-21 12:20
This might explain it better:
Author: GBK (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: 11-26-01 18:29
Here is a recent quote from "the Doctor" (L Omar Henderson) which may help you:
"The trick to storing reeds is to keep the relative humidity less than 50% (mold and mildew spores and most bacteria will not grow). An easy way to do this is to get an airtight "TupperWare" container, put the dryed reeds in there with some of those silica gel packets which will generally keep the RH less than 50%. For short term storage - another smaller one with the same packets. The RH is difficult to control at less than 50% and the reeds may get down to 20-30% moisture content - but no mold or bacteria and simple, cheap, and easy. The cigar humidor with RH Meter is the best, and most expensive."
The Doctor
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-21 13:07
Nick - those silica gel packets, canisters come in diffferent sizes to desiccate different volumes of space or product. to answer your question - the common sized smaller ones will desiccate 6 cubic centimeters of space from 100% RH down to less than 30% RH. The best deal is to have a humidity indicator - either a meter or chemical strip in the container to tell you how you are doing at removing humidity, and when you need to change or recharge your desiccant. The disposable packets often found in electronic gear, etc. are very cheaply constructed and should be checked for rips or tears. The silica gel inside these disposable packets is not graded by size and often contains a silica gel dust that contains the chemical (acrylamide monomer) which is a neuro-toxin and something that you do not want to breathe or put in your mouth al la you reed. The best ones are those in a closed plastic canister that are used to keep pills-drugs dry in the pharmacy. These are sealed and have a filtering cloth across the open slits on the ends of the canisters. You can buy new silica gel packets or canisters in bulk from packaging materials companies or perhaps talk your favorite pharmacist into saving some from his used bulk pill bottles, or you can buy them from me.
The Doctor
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-21 13:31
Just thought of another approach which will potentially work but requires a little more work. You can get CaCl2 (calcium chloride) flakes or granules and put them into a plastic film canister will holes poked into the top which will remove excess water from the container. You can use commercial ice melting CaCl2 used to remove ice in the winter or buy the refill containers of CaCl2 used in the plastic containers that you put into closets to remove moisture and retard mildew growth and odors - the only commercial name that I know is Dampit. The calcium chloride will absorb water and turn into a liquid CaCl2-H20 in the container as it absorbs moisture. This approach should bring the RH down to a little less than 50% RH but you must remove the liquid and put in new solid CaCl2 periodically to keep the RH down to 50% or below- it will not go much below 45% RH because of the chemical reaction properties of CaCl2. One must be careful not to spill the liquid in the reed container or onto reeds when recharging the container. This is cheap!
The Doctor
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-21 14:42
Nick - I have a reed case with the 'right' ammount of this moisture absorbing stuff built into it. Will chat to you about it sometime, you can get them through Robert Schubert.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-21 18:09
True, Mark, care is reqd with any chem [or ab/adsorption] dehydration. Omar, didn't we used to use dehy'd. [gray] CuSO4 to get low RH's, which, tho somewhat acidic, did "go blue" when "wet"? Could it be used here? Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-21 19:14
I sometimes forget the level of fastidiousness needed to carry out some of my ideas. Mark is right but:
I said it was cheap - it depends on how much care you wish to expend to save a few cents. I have used the commercial format of CaCl2 in a gun safe for years to prevent rust and keep a RH meter inside to monitor RH. The CaCl2 method will work but as indicated, one must be careful about tipping over the container and spilling it. The commercial format has a ventilated cover with a tray beneath holding solid CaCl2 with holes at the bottom which allow the hyrated liquid to drip into a collection chamber below. This collection chamber is then dumped and new CaCl2 added to the top tray. One must use a pretty large sized setup to get adequate dessication in a given space using this method.
The desiccant CuSO4 that I was used to using (Dryerite) had a litmus indicator and when blue it was dry and turned to pink when wet (an acid base reaction similar to the chemical RH indicator strips). CuSO4 is a pretty crummy desiccant and even with litmus it does not give a very accurate indicator of RH other than really dry or really wet. Since it is a "science" item the cost is high from scientific houses that sell the stuff (the same places that charge U.S.$5.95 for a 9 volt alkaline battery!).
All in all, silica gel desiccant is the best and easiest to use given the precautions in the previous post.
The Doctor
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-21 21:11
If the original post was about using dessicants to dry reeds I offer my solution that I arrived at after having reeds develop mold in vandoren plastic reed holders. I cut "plexiglas" pieces slightly larger than the reed length and width and sand all corners. I then put two rubber O-rings toward one end spacing them appropriately and slip the reed under the rings. One ring works best placed just over the reed tip and the other one about 3/4 inch away. You can store two reeds per "holder". I made the plastic holders different lengths so I can grade reeds by state of readiness to play. Just put the containers with reeds attached in your clarinet case. In the old days we just kept the reeds in the cardboard holders that each one came in.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-21 22:24
Bob - I like your idea about the holders but it does not help if the ambient humidity is high - as in the Southern U.S. during the summer (May-October) unless you have the case climate controlled too. I dehumidify the reeds as well as the case but keep my stash of unused reeds in a sealed container at Relative Humidity at around 45%. In this way I am removing one variable (the hydration state of the reed) from the breaking in and selection process for new reeds. I keep the horn at 50-55% RH by a chemistry concoction of my own design.
As stated before - no one need go to the extremes of some here on the BB (including myself) to be a successful player - only talent and practice will do this. Take what you will from the suggestions and practices of posters and apply what fits to your own personal style.
The Doctor
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2002-10-21 22:30
Craft supply houses sell bulk silica gell for dryng flowers. Wouldn't that work in the film canisters? If you just poke holes in the lid, you could stretch a fine cloth over it to minimize leaks of dust before snapping the lid on -- and that's cheap, too.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-10-21 23:00
Since the RH is typically 80 to 83% in the summer in south Torrance, CA where I live, I bought a small jar of silica gel(silicon dioxide?) at a chemical supply house. Brass screen is available at OSH hardware stores. So I made a 1/2 x 4 x 4 container out of the brass screen to hold the silica gel and put it in a sealed sandwich box. A small RH meter is kept inside the sandwich box. When the RH gets over 60% in the box, I put the brass screen container in the kitchen oven for 10 minutes at 250 degrees to dry it out and then return it to the sandwich box Mostly, it is used for oboe and clarinet reeds. Reeds can also be dried under an incandescent lamp for a few minutes. Good luck!
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Author: JUlia
Date: 2002-10-22 00:39
or you could just keep the humidity high all the time....
this way the drying and wetting of the reads doesn't wear out the fibers and helps to the longevity. I've recently started doing this within the last month or so, and I find already that my reeds generally respond quicker, are more equivalent in readiness to play. THere's no problem with mold (use antiseptic for the humidifying factor (soak sponge)--like listerine or something) and its easy! A week or so after you start doing this the reed plays harder (because the fibers come together making it warp a little thereby making it further away from the tip), but then you just sand the back and everything's good to go!
You should try it--its cool
Julia
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-22 01:07
What a wonderful thread this is ... so many truely inventive minds! I do not have the energy to comment on the wet reed senerio but for bulk reeds (boxes) it is probably not a good idea.
The newest health concern in environmental health (the Center that I work for at the Centers for Disease Control) is acrylamide monomer and health effects stemming from neurotoxcity, mutagenesis, and DNA adduct formation from environmental exposures in the general population. This is why I caution against the dust getting on the reeds. All unpurified acrylamides and silicone dioxides contain a certain percentage of these bad players. The polyacrylamides and silica gel products used as desiccants are not intended for inhalation or ingestion. This is not an acute poisioning event but a situation that you should avoid if possible. The less purified the product - and there are food grade polyacrylamide preparations used in the food industry as volume expanders - the more monomer (bad one) present.
If you put a dust proof barrier - permeable to water vapor - between the silica gel or polyacrylamide gel and the reed then all is well. Silica gel can indeed be dehydrated with heat and reused again. Like many rechargable batteries however it will loose dehydrating power with many cycles.
No alarm here - just caution to the prudent individual.
The Doctor
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-10-22 10:45
Doc: "What a wonderful thread this is ... so many truely inventive minds!".... what can I say, I try my best! :D
The replies have gotten far too complicated for me. I have 2 reed containers each can hold about 250mL and they are both full of reeds in reed holders. I have placed one silica gell canister in each container and I'm going to see how I go. I don't think they will leak.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-22 15:52
In the first place, it seems to me that hydrated CaCl2 would have to incorporate a rather huge amount of water before becoming liquid, although I don't recall and am not disposed either to looking it up or to trying it out right now. In the second place, I reside on the marge of the Mojave desert, where relative humidities in the dry season (about 11½ months of the year) range sometimes down into single digits. Hence humidity is usually not my enemy. Finally, just a comment that reusing Silica Gel packets of either the plastic-canister or other variety may do no good unless they are reactivated first by dehydrating. This should not be a tough problem: put them in a very low humidity environment for a while so they can give up their accumulated water.
By the way, it is always a pleasure to see Doctor Hwenderson's posts, because I recognize him as someone who conducts real tests before announcing anything as absolute. If he says you need relative humidity <50% to ensure absence of most microorganism growth, I believe it. There is far too much stock placed in "conventional wisdom" which is sometimes proved to be utter nonsense, such as putting bread in a refrigerator to inhibit mold growth. Actually, many bread molds grow best at temperatures around 5º to 10º Celsius. The freezer will do it a lot better -- which might also be true for storing reeds if they're quite dry to begin with (don't want to rupture lots of cells, you know). I've not tried it, so I don't know.
A fascinating thread.
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-22 16:18
JMcAulay wrote:
>
> In the first place, it seems to me that hydrated CaCl2
> would have to incorporate a rather huge amount of water before
> becoming liquid, although I don't recall and am not disposed
> either to looking it up or to trying it out right now.
After reading the rest of the post about "conventional wisdom" and re-reading the above ...
Something doesn't jibe. Perhaps you've not used a CaCl2 product like DampRid. Let me assure you, the liquid will accumulate at the bottom of the bucket and if it spills out you may as well go buy a new piece of carpet.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-10-22 18:27
Mark, surely you recognize that if something "seems to me," that doesn't make it so -- either conventionally or otherwise. And you have hit the nail on the head: "DampRid" is not the sort of topic which dominates after-dinner conversation over brandy and cigars here in the billiard room near the scarcely-humid Mojave Desert. I really have never before heard of it, but I will certainly accept your assurances.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2002-10-23 01:08
Most of us have too many more serious things to concern ourselves with without complicating our lives unnecessarily. We need to keep the reeds pressed to prevent warping, but to simplify the process at the same time. One can spend so much money!
If these dehumidifiers can be toxic, go the cheap and hygenic route - Julia recommends Listerine, etc, which works very well. Hydrogen peroxide is even less expensive and more accessible to the common person. Add only a few drops of hydrogen peroxide to your reed water before playing. Our medical doctor actually recommended this mix for gargling for throat infections, so it's not toxic. Just "towel dry" the reed after use, pop it in your case, and forget about it. It sure keeps the mold out of my fancy reed case! And my expensive reeds seem happy after several months of this practice.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-23 12:26
Dear Brenda - you are right about being too obsessive and the fact that we should be practicing rather than nit-picking about esoteric subjects - however ... you have a couple of topics comingled in your last paragraph. The mouthwash and peroxide treatment are to kill the mold, and bacteria associated with storage at humidities greater than 50%. Neither product is actually good for the longeivity of reeds. Depending on the mouthwash used the reed structure can be damaged and we have had posts about the use of straight hydrogen peroxide without additatives also altering reeds.
Actually, my idea about storing reeds at <50% RH mainly applies to bulk reed storage although I have several reed cases that I store in a separate container desiccated in a reed rotation program that I use - many players just find a couple good reeds and play them to death. Most players that use only several reeds at a time probably have no need of a complicated desiccator. Our problems are somewhat complicated here in the Southern U.S. by high heat and humidity.
Somewhere earlier I indicated that, as you also wrote, every player must apply only the degree of effort that fits their own lifestyle to tweaking the equipment side of playing.
The Doctor
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