 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: George
Date: 2002-10-14 03:05
Has anyone on this forum used Almond Oil for a bore oil? If so, what has been your experience?
George
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Author: JPM
Date: 2002-10-14 04:43
Dear George,
I have been using almond oil for a few years and really like the results. It absorbs readily and seems to penetrate deeper into the wood. It is more effective and lasts longer.
Sincerely,
JPM
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Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2002-10-14 04:45
Yes. I use it now and again when the bore appears to be drying out for no other reason than my wife keeps a supply of it. I have heard that linseed is the preferred lubricant [according to some of the experts] but have no experience of it myself. Almond oil is light and should be as good as most other light oils, smells OK too.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-14 11:21
As GBK indicates we have had a very lengthy discussion on almond oil. Almond oil is one of a number of oils that are wood friendly and will replentish natural moisture balance to wood. Unfortunately nearly all the almond oil in the common marketplace has been "processed to death" and lacks many of the trace components that make natural almond oil good for the wood. It is very difficult to find a good source of oil that mimics "natural" and contains the wood friendly elements that put almond oil into the folklore of woodwind care products. I would also hasten to say that IMHO almond oil is only one of a mixture of oils that should be used on woodwind instruments rather than petroleum based mineral oil sold by the major companies as a bore oil.
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-10-14 11:25
I have been using Almond and Linseed since I first got a wooden instrument. When I learnt my repair trade I was taught to use non petroleum bore oil from the word go. Better for the health without doubt. Be careful of linseed oil it gets into absolutely everything and too much will sweat through the outside of the body and stuff the pads completely. Most Australians of my age will remember oiling their cricket bats with linseed oil from the hardware shop. It was supposed to stop them cracking. Total bollocks. For those in America cricket is the biggest bat and ball sport in the world! Baseball for gentlemen!
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-14 14:53
Remember, it's the sweet almond oil that is to be used. Tung oil is better than linseed-if you are a linseed fan... as it doesn't "gum up" but sweet almond is my preference. I also use Doc's bore oil.
Another useful oil is Formby's lemon oil treatment. I use it as a wood and metal tarnish cleaner...it does both.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-14 15:20
As all have said, well discussed. I keep my "oxidation-protected" almond and newly-acquired "refined apricot" [good so far] oils in the refrigerator [not freezer] for added life. Don
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-10-14 16:40
I've been using Sweet Almond Oil and it works very well. Get it at the pharmacy. Sometimes they have to order it.....only costs $3 for a 2 ounce bottle and lasts a long time. Smells great and tastes good too!
John
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2002-10-14 20:06
I have been using a formula from Steve Fox: 3 parts extra virgin olive oil, 1 part almond oil, break in a half dozen vitamin E capsules. This seems to work well, but the taste may not be for everyone.
Whatever you do, be sure to get the olive oil without the garlic added.
|-(8^)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-14 21:36
Whoa! - Before we make another salad dressing - some of the formulations listed are patently absurd and should not be used on wood. "3 parts extra virgin olive oil, 1 part almond oil, break in a half dozen vitamin E capsules" - just as an example - how much vitamin E - 200, 400, 800, 1000 IU? What is the carrier oil for the vitamin E? Is it D, L, or DL form? Vitamin E is only a fair antioxidant in plant oil systems - it is an pretty good antioxidant for animal fat.
Olive oil, even with almond oil is not a formulation that is good for the wood, - tung oil, and linseed oil polymerize over time and clog the pores of the wood with a varnish like residue. Question - why use oils that were not used in the initial impregnation of the wood? Olive oil, almond oil by itself, linseed oil, tung oil, etc. are not used by the instrument manufacturers to treat the wood prior to manufacturing steps. These oils (and as I mentioned earlier, nearly all sweet almond oil sold in the common marketplace is worthless as a wood perservative because of the processing steps used to obtain it) are not used in modern wood preservation formulations - as evidenced by museum conservators who will not use the listed oils on wood artifacts for preservation purposes.
This is a matter of personal preference of course but there are good scientific reasons for not using many of the old, folklore based recipies - primarily because they do not work, may cause more harm than good, and ingredients used are not the same as the original formulation and are not standardized in any rational way.
Good oiling to all.
The Doctor
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-14 23:11
Doctor,
What oil or a formulation is used in the initial impregnation of the wood by the instrument manufacturers?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-14 23:28
Dear Vytas - I won't beat around the bush - I can't tell you. I approached the major manufacturer's with my analysis of their oil for confirmation, and they would confirm on the condition that I not divulge their formulations. My interest was to make a preservative oil that would mimic and be compatible with the oil they used to impregnate the wood. My own formulation is a trade secret. We could play "twenty questions" all night but I think that my previous post indicated which oils were not used in the manufacturer's process. This is probably self serving - but - the manufacturers oil formulations are not as good at preserving as my own scientifically formulate oil - a couple of reasons why they would not use my formulation: 1) some of the ingredients are just too costly for a big vat process and some ingredients are not necessary for this kind of manufacturing step, 2) they have been using and making instruments of high quality using the same oil formulation for a long time and it works reasonably well- so why take a chance and change, 3) they could not make a 1000's% profit selling mineral oil as bore oil in the after market??
The Doctor
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Author: Henry
Date: 2002-10-15 00:39
Omar: I have read a lot of your posts on this subject and, with all due respect, you fail to convince me of the superiority of your formulations, whatever its magic ingredients. I am a PhD chemist myself, specializing in surface chemistry , with a long career in industry, in areas such as skin care, wettability, detergency, oil recovery, etc. I have over 60 papers in first-rate refereed professional journals. If you claim your formulations are based on science, I would like to see the theoretical and/or experimental evidence. This would involve studies of the porosity, wettability, imbibition of water and oil, water diffusion, etc., etc. Without any such evidence, it seems to me that your oil is just another "snake oil", although it might be better than many others. Who knows? What were the final tests on the wood that convinced you of the superiority of your bore oil? I am very intersted, since I just picked up a Leblanc clarinet on eBay and am relearning to play the horn after a long hiatus. Henry
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-15 01:35
Dear Henry - If I went into the details 99.9% of the readership would go to sleep. If you check back in the archives for the last three years you will get snipits and partial explanations which are indeed very scientific. There are posts citing my oil labeled with fluorescent dye and explainations of the penetration in depths of millimeters (debunking the old wife's tale that oil does not penetrate grenadilla wood). There are also explanations of why I use plant derived oil - Nature's amazing molecular structure that has a hydrophillic surface and hydrophobic core and though not cited, I have energy equilavents of stripping water molecules from various oils and combinations of oils, association and disassociation constants for various oils in aqueous solutions, and a high stack of experimental notebooks. At my day job working in the laboratory science area at the Centers for Disease Control I have access and working knowledge of the most state-of-the-art and cutting-edge technologies for chemical and physical analysis of oils, these include: IR, GTIR, FTIR, capillary electrophoresis, gas chromatography, liquid chromatography, various incarnations of mass spectrometry - GC/MS, MS/MS, MULDITOF/MS etc.. Also cited have been discussions of using plant based antioxidant molecules rather than Vitamin E, the roles of various emulsifying agents in formulations so that chromatographic oil separations do not take place within the wood, etc. I use strict drug-cosmetic methodology to test stability, accelerated stability functions, and batch archival temporal stability samples on every production lot. These data are available on request - by anyone.
In addition to the science I have done years of historical research on wood artifacts dating in the BC era as well as on-site personally researching archival records and verifying formulations used for at least 400 years by church and monestary custodians of wooden religious artifacts. I have discussed and researched conservation techniques for wood with the curators at many of the world's famous museums in the U.S., Europe, Asia, and Africa. I have continued this historical research into cork, african black wood - grenadilla, leather, and other substances.
I would be more than happy to discuss "off the air" - my contact information is on my web site prominantly labeled CONTACT - any questions of a purely general scientific nature that you wish. I will not discuss proprietary information on my formulations - for obvious reasons.
Yours truely in NON-Snake Oil,
The Doctor
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Author: Henry
Date: 2002-10-15 01:43
Dear Omar: Thanks for your lengthy reply. I'll have to dig further into the archives for your past posts, and I may take you up on your offer to discuss these and other matters off-line in more detail. Greetings, Henry
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-15 02:01
Doctor,
Can your oil be used on wooden mouthpieces? My concern is that I don't want anything toxic in my mouth. I have a very nice 100 years old wooden mouthpiece that used to play very well for about 5 minutes and after that it would stop responding because rails would swell and mess up the facing. I dropped the mouthpiece in extra virgin oil for 3 days and all problems disappeared. LOL. I just don't want anything "scientific" in my mouth. Is your oil safe in that respect? .......V
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-15 03:10
Dear V - the science is in the formulation and there is nothing toxic in the mixture and could indeed be used as salad dressing but probably would not match Ken's oil dressing for this purpose. I have not used the oil on wooden mouthpieces - I have just about everything else clarinet in the world but not one of those - sounds like a Holiday gift from my daughter in the making. Check the archives for a post by Gregory Smith where he has something to say about using oil on wooden mouthpieces. I know that Gregory has been doing his own research on the subject and perhaps he will let us know the current status - if he reads almond oil threads?
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-15 10:34
Bob wrote, "Tung oil is better than linseed-if you are a linseed fan... as it doesn't "gum up..."
I have a pint can of tung oil that is at least a decade old, tightly closed and almost never used. The spills on the top of the can are about as gummed up (and black) as the bitumen sealing on a city street - difficult to scrape with a finger nail. I have just removed the gummed up lid with a great deal of force with the heavy-duty tools. The surface of the oil has a consistency between that of hard jubes and set epoxy glue. Below this thick surface the consistency is like a very high viscosity jelly.
Bob's suggestion to use tung oil is seriously misguided. Nobody would want this mess near their clarinet. I suspect many of the suggested oils would finish up similar, judging from the typical sticky mess on the shelf where the unused salad oil is kept!
We seem to live in an environment where the products of science are sometimes scary, but the current Western trend to slap science in the face, and chose untested magic recipes based on belief, ahead of what science has proved to be better, is equally scary.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-15 13:35
What is bore oil used for, anyway? I come from the 'non-oiling' school, and my instrument is fine...?
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-15 14:33
Gordon wrote: <Bob's suggestion to use tung oil is seriously misguided>
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
I was suggesting that tung oil doesn't "gum up" as much as linseed oil Old Chap...
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-15 14:38
Sorry,I failed to paste Gordon's quote....Anyway,Gordie,I wasn't suggesting to use tung oil, I was suggesting that if one favors linseed oil they might be better off using tung which is less "gummy" than linseed. I have cans of both,by the way.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-16 00:53
So between us, I am saying, with ample evidence, that tung should not even be considered, and you are suggesting that linseed is even worse. Shall we agree on that as a summary of communication?
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2002-10-16 00:56
To answer Morrigan's question about what bore oil is for and why bother - You may remember I had asked about how to solve the condensation bubbling up through the pads while playing, and Glen Webb suggested buying some oil formulated by the owner of Muncy Winds in N.C.? Well I did, and it was inexpensive, and it's working.
It appears that when an instrument is recently purchased, it's been soaked enough to last quite a while without needing oiling. However, it appears that due to many on-line cautions against oiling my instrument, that part of my instrument's maintenance was neglected for a long time. Now that I've used this oil that Muncy Winds has formulated and let it sit for several hours before swabbing and playing it again, the instrument isn't driving me crazy by bubbling out the pads!
So it's become obvious that every few months we need to give the wood some attention with a high quality oil, protecting the pads at the same time of course so they don't get oiled in the process. I'll leave the discussion of what works or doesn't work to you guys who know science. I prefer to use what makes living skin soft and supple, and I don't think linseed would do it.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-10-16 00:58
Brenda
But I don't have this problem, I have cork and leather pads.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-10-17 19:38
"I know that Gregory has been doing his own research on the subject and perhaps he will let us know the current status - if he reads almond oil threads?"
The Doctor
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I have been using the almond oil that Omar has sent to me and am still in the experimental stages as to the oil or not to oil question. That of course is a seperate issue as related to wood mouthpieces and should not be confused with oiling the clarinet itself.
There is no doubt in my mind that the assertions that he makes are correct about the almond oil based on my experience.
Gregory Smith
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Author: :)
Date: 2002-10-18 18:14
Hi-
My repairman has always used almond oil. This work better than anything synthetic, since almond oil is natural, there aren't any plastics or strange synthetic lubes being added to the wood of you horn
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2002-10-18 20:32
:) wrote:
>
> Hi-
> My repairman has always used almond oil. This work better
> than anything synthetic, since almond oil is natural, there
> aren't any plastics or strange synthetic lubes being added to
> the wood of you horn
Well, while almond oil may be just great, there's no real reason why synthetics couldn't be as good if not better if formulated for wood. It's just that (AFAIK) they aren't formulated for wood.
Just because something's "natural" (whatever that really means) doesn't necessarily mean it's better. Think of all the deaths from "natural causes" that have been prevented by synthetic materials ...
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Author: Henry
Date: 2002-10-18 21:35
Mark: As must be clear from my previous post to "The Doctor", I'm all with you. As with pharmaceuticals, the only study that will convince me of the superiority of one formulated product over another is an unbiased and published study of the two in terms of their efficacy. In the case of bore oils, the obvious criterion must be their relative ability to keep grenadilla wood from cracking. In the absence of such a study, I feel that there is no basis for ranking almond oil, the "Doctor's oil" (or Mobil 1, for that matter) in terms of their efficacy. Anecdotal evidence won't do. I also agree that "naturalness" is overrated. As you imply, and others have said, "natural" materials can be deadly (as, of course, can synthetics).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-19 00:25
Henry wrote:
>
> I feel that there is no basis for ranking almond oil,
> the "Doctor's oil" (or Mobil 1, for that matter) in terms of
> their efficacy. Anecdotal evidence won't do.
"The Doctor" has gone beyond anecdotal evidence for his oil in penetration and preservation studies. Not peer reviewed yet (AFAIK) but experimental evidence has been informally presented.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2002-10-19 02:02
Mark wrote:
<"The Doctor" has gone beyond anecdotal evidence for his oil in penetration and preservation studies. Not peer reviewed yet (AFAIK) but experimental evidence has been informally presented.>
Where specifically? I have an open mind and am eager to be convinced! I am new at this. I have just purchased a 1964 Leblanc that may need some oiling badly. So the more reliable info I can get the better. If I use the wrong oil, it may crack within a week or so! Perhaps better not to oil it at all, as some would undoubtedly advise me. It does seem to be a black art!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-19 11:58
Henry, I would suggest you start by searching ALL the masses of information Omar has provided over the years in this forum, and for any further doubts, communicate with him directly. His research would seem to be about the most scientific and thorough that is available at present.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2002-11-08 21:46
I use pure peanut oil (Planters 24oz $2.99 at Pathmark) with great results. This isn't rocket science, what we are trying to do is replenish the natural oils that were present in the wood when it was cut down. These are the oils that the tree produces for its own preservation. So, in conclusion what you need is an oil that is as close to the tree's natural oil as possible. Ground nut oil (peanut, almond) is best because it closely mimics the natural tree oil and is non-drying, like linseed or tung oil which will dry and build up over time.
Mark
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