 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: james
Date: 2002-10-13 06:37
It's really ironic the post came up the same time i am putting this up.....
Right now I am playing principal clarinet with the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra. I just had a concert friday night playing with a chamber orchestra made up of the top 35 players in cyso. So unlike the full symphony the chamber orchestra orchestra only has two clarinet spots instead of four.
Usually how we do ranking is by putting the 1st player on principal and the assistant principal playing principal on the concerto's ect, the 3rd clarinet is generally the 2nd desk player and the fourth is the bass clarinet and generally the 2nd playing on the concerto's.
Anyhow back to my point. For the encore chamber orchestra I am principal and the assistant plays the 2nd parts. I am having such a rough time right now working with him. I feel over powered all the time... he doesn't do those things you have all said a 2nd player should do. I don't really know how to approach this situation. If anyone could get me advice, i would greatly appreciate very much.
-James
PS. I think in the past i have said carmen izzo is in the chicago youth symphony orchestra. I just want to say his is not him I am talking about. Carmen i must say is the best 2nd clarinet player I have ever played with. He does all those things everyone has described in a second player and makes my time with cyso that's much more enjoyable.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-10-13 13:27
I have had this problem as well in the Queensland Youth Orchestra, and it is continuing... the main problem is the 2nd player has a really bad ear, and doesn't listen very well for pitch, and for what is going on around us. It's really hard to get someone to listen when they don't know how... and as for having a reliable technique, and being able to blend, well let's just say these could be improved too... If I want her to do something with the music I'll usually just tell her. We are good enough friends that I can do that, but I can't fix her pitch, tone, or technique for her. I think in a youth orchestra situation you just have to grin and bear it... it'd be different of course in a professional situation.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-13 13:35
Perhaps you are hoping the 2nd will read your post and you can continute to avoid discussing the issue with him/her.
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Author: james
Date: 2002-10-13 15:13
Bob-
Maybe but I am pretty sure he has never been to this board before.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-13 15:30
It's your director's job to help in this situation if you can't discuss it amicably with your 2nd (and I have a sneaking suspicion that if you're talking about something like this on a public BBoard that you don't feel it can be discussed amicably - in fact, by discussing it here you've just poured gasoline on the flames).
Airing your dirty laundry in public can backfire and cause a deeper problem than what you started with.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-10-13 15:39
Sounds like he is a classic Principal "Wannabe", which is a very touchy situation for all. If you do not feel comfortable confronting him with your concerns or taking matters up with your personal manager of conductor, then would it be possible to co-principal for the season, sharing the principal position responsibilities on a concert or piece-by-piece basis. I have always thought that such duties should be shared in training orchestras, such as the Chicago Youth Symphony, to provide a better learning experiance for as many players of talent as possible. In fact, I believe that all sections of such orchestras should be organized on a rotating placement system rather than a fixed system. BTW, I also deplore high school level sports activities that play only their "varsity best" while the majority of the team rides the bench--but that's a totally different story, nevertheless related. In education/training, envolvement and opportunity should take priority over winning.
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Author: THE ONE
Date: 2002-10-13 16:29
William-yeah,I never heard anyone say that before, but you bring up a good point.Alot of the second players in high school have no high note ability or good sound when they hit them because they've been stuck in the seconds area and when your a second you play mostly middle and lower range.The directors don't usually let them try to move up to first and they're stuck there for all through high school.Blarmy!;P
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-13 17:53
William wrote:
>
> Sounds like he is a classic Principal "Wannabe", which is
> a very touchy situation for all.
Or the almost exact opposite, an insecure principal.
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Author: Marcia
Date: 2002-10-13 20:31
I'll put in my 2 cents worth--I play in a community orchestra and the other clarinetist and I play at much the same level. We have been together there for 12 seasons, beginning our 13th, and ALWAYS share the first parts, hence we both take a turn at being the second. Have others had this experience? This may not be appropriate in all situations, but it works extremely well for us. We applaud each others solos, and work always to blend with each other. I consider myself very fortunate to be in such a situation.
Marcia
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2002-10-13 21:36
i recently played a gig with students at the local university- two "wanabe principal" clarinets fighting it out for 1st and 2nd... both with lots of talent and ability, but the way they are heading now neither of them will ever play professionally because they don't have any of the qualities discussed in the other 2nd clarinet posting....
i would observe that a lot of this is due to their personalities, the type of people that they are- and also to the tendancies that we may (somewhat patronisingly) ascribe to talented 20 year olds... THIS is very hard to change. Unfortunately.
someones playing you can change- but their personality?
all i can suggest is- do extra sectionals, try to get them to work WITH you while doing subtle things to enhance their confidence ("do you know another fingering for this?")... use the word "WE" as often as possible... ask them to play another piece with you... "oh, would you like to play this Crussell Duo with me?" (most of the Crussel duos have two very equal parts, so you get to do lots of blending etc + develop a relationship, play the same themes and compare interpretation thus exercise ears etc)
you'll have a hard time getting this person to be subordinate (if that's what you expect)
so at least get them to work WITH you
donald
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-10-13 22:07
There's a reason they're called 'Bands'...
I would just hire Jeff Gillooly, Derrick Smith, Shawn Eckardt and Shane Stant if you can't get some backbone about this.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-13 23:35
interesting, in the recent concert we did during reheasal the conductor told the 2cd player to play louder. in fact in important 2cd parts i invited my 2cd player to go to it!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-13 23:41
Just one note, its important in certain parts that the 2cd player definitely matches the intensity of the 1st. I'd that the conductor should be the judge in the final analysis of BALANCE issues...
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-10-14 01:35
In a professional orchestra it is the section leaders' job (often the principal of the section or the principal flute if there is an over all "section principal") to ensure that his/her subordinates play to his/her standards of expectation.
As to youth orchestras ... don't go there, it's very dangerous ground and, if in doubt, let your music director be the arbitratory.
this has been my experience
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Author: James
Date: 2002-10-14 01:53
Thanks your response guys, i really appreciate it. I decided today after another rehearsal I talked to my music director and he has promised me to take care of the situation.
Mark- Are you sure it's really insecurity? I mean it could be a very little but how in the direction or being annoyed because someone is trying to constantly show you up? I am not worried about loosing my position. I just want there to be a sense of team work. I kind of think of it like an election in a way. Two parties compeate for something. Then one wins then they both come to get for the better good of everyone. Shouldn't this same idea work in the orchestra field as well?
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-14 02:05
I play about 50 concerts professionally as a 1st clarinet section leader. My section mate is a pro and knows from a long working relationship together what I expect. She is also a fine artist ... We have played so much we can usually note without a word when something is out of tune. (Me or her>)
I also think its important to enjoy working with your section mate and also be sensitive to the nature of playing 2cd. the entire throat area is so difficult to tune you have to also understand the difficulties of playing 2cd, it is really hard! It is important to foster good and positive interaction professionally.
I will also say that it is not a competition. Music is made only when the EGO is left at door.....even as a solo 1st player you have to understand your part is only part of a greater fabric the composer has woven. Dovetailing phrases, blending, and knowing when not to blend are things that come with experience.
Sincerely D Dow
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-14 02:11
James wrote:
>
>
> Mark- Are you sure it's really insecurity? I mean it could be
> a very little but how in the direction or being annoyed because
> someone is trying to constantly show you up?
I think putting things like that out on a public BBoard shows less than maturity and makes me suspicious of motives. We didn't need to know:
1) Your real name
2) That the CYSO is involved
3) That you're principal
You may be playing second someday with this person as principal. And, believe me, they won't forget. Neither will anyone else who plays in your section. How many people do you think will want to be your standmate now that we know that you'll complain in public about real or perceived problems? You jumped the "chain of command" at a very public institution ... something not to be done lightly.
I know that <b>I</b> remember professional slights forever ... not disagreements, but things akin to what you've done.
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Author: Tim
Date: 2002-10-14 11:22
From all the youth orchestras I have played in Australia, if you are mates with the other player, then just tell them to pull their head in a little, as really that is the principals job. If you get a problem though in that you have a player who either can't listen, refuses to listen, or does stupid stuff like practice your solo's while your sitting next to them (somebody did that to me when doing Beethoven 6!) then the best recipe is to ignore it. Let the management take care of those little worries and focus on playing better yourself. (the beethoven six person, squeaked on the top C in the 2nd move. solo, and then lost the run in the thrid move. showing that if you are going to be an idiot, most likely it will backfire on you) My point: karma, what comes around goes around. Be nice, accept that people are different and don't stress about the little things.
PS Everyones perception of balance etc is different, especially in youth orchestras, so maybe you are the one who is too soft/out of tune?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-14 18:27
James -
Particularly in youth orchestras, it's tough to play second, particuarly when you think you play as well as or even better than the person ahead of you. It's even worse for good players, since their conception of themselves gets bound up on how well the're doing.
Eventually, you get used to the fact you're not Larry Combs, but it's never easy.
At this point, there's nothing you can do directly to make your 2nd player happy. You have to play your best and enjoy what you're doing.
As Mark says, it's probably best to go to the conductor, who can say to the 2nd, from a position of authority, something like "You're sticking out -- you need to blend with the section."
One thing you might try is getting hold of a "duet solo" for both parts together. A great example is the slow movement of the Dvorak 8th Symphony, which is in all the excerpt books. It requires that the two players work together as one and really listen to and accommodate to each other. Tell the 2nd player "I heard this great solo for two parts. I'd like to hear how it sound with you." Then work on both of you adjusting to each other. If he's a decent player, he'll get the point. If not, you gave it your best shot.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-10-15 04:26
I agree with the duet idea. My fellow clarinetist and I spent a semester doing duets and performing once a week together. Sometimes we through them together, sometimes we really worked together a lot. It just happens that we are the two clarinetists in orchestra and the Eb/1st and 1st/2nd clarinetists in our wind ensemble. Our working together has really helped us in both groups. Not only do we know how to play together better, we have a close friendship so that he can tell me when I do something wrong, and vise versa. Also, we alternate 1st and 2nd parts in both ensembles. It has helped us both to be strong and to really listen to eachother.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-10-15 17:14
This can be a tough call particularly in youth orchestras, community, and church or college band. I would think if not a professionally paid environment it depends on the group's collective priorities. Does the music come first, is it more a fun and social experience or combination of both? In a Principal role and with these kinds of people (extremely rare when I do) I initially stay focused on music appealing to their musicality/group continuity using encouraging words, poking and prodding. If the music begins to suffer, it becomes personal or a battle of wills I'll request to speak with them and the Conductor in private to address the issue. If this doesn't work (and I don't have the option of moving them down in the section) I'll go to the Conductor again and ask he listens more closely to the problem areas and if necessary, "single them out" in rehearsal as an attention getter. If still unresponsive, I'll go back to the Conductor and ask them to dismiss the person, if they won't THEN the gloves are off and I'll make the schmucks' life a living hell until they voluntarily move down in section or quit. If I'm a section player I use the same approach but instead of recommending they be fired I'll ignore them and stick to my own business.
Some years ago, I worked with two world-class trombone players playing 1st and 2nd in our concert band. Brilliant musicians that they are/were, these clowns (both in their mid-40s) absolutely hated each other’s guts. Off stage, they despised each other to the point they couldn't even be left in the same room alone without ripping each other to pieces. They constantly disagreed and fought over every aspect of the classical trombone. One morning it finally came to a head. I came to rehearsal extra early, opened the room door and was met with the sight of the two of them screeching and throwing chairs back and forth at one another across the room! Fortunately for everyone else’s' sanity and safety the director let one of them go.
Moral of the story: When "on stage" and in public they were consummate professionals, got along famously, played beautifully together. In two years I never saw a single contention between them, they would even compliment each other’s playing. Music ALWAYS came first, the personalities, hatred and egos were left in the dressing room (where it belongs). Attitude, respect and integrity for the music and art should always be the priority and ultimate goal each time the horn goes into the face...especially in a supporting role/part. Regrettably, some instrumentalists (and 99% of vocalists on planet earth) simply cannot and/or will not separate the "two", be mature and professional enough to apply and comprehend team ethic. The finest players I've had the privilege of working with possess this vital quality defining them from all the others. It is just as important "playing fundamental" as screwing one's horn together. Get it, or forget it. v/r KEN
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2002-10-17 21:57
The best way to become a team (with people in their proper roles--I don't know if I like how you worded your subject line) is to be a gracious first player. If you really do need to say something to the individual, always couch it as "we" (I think this was mentioned already), and see if maybe you can rehearse the problem section(s) during a break together, as a team, as equals. Anyone with a sense of social discernment can tell if a comment is coming from a humble wish for the good of the ensemble, or a prideful desire for someone to assert his Principal status as superior. Still, if the person is coming enough out of the texture to be especially distracting, the conductor will probably notice and say something. If the conductor isn't annoyed by it, why say anything? It probably is not as bad as you think. Being a gracious first player also includes keeping problems like this guarded. Along the lines of Mark C., anonymity would have been wiser.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-10-18 09:11
Hey Suzanne- i like your comments, only, lots of 1st players seem to think they are the general of their own little army.... i guess that sometimes this might have to be the case.... in the US i noticed more of a "we/teamwork" attitude, my experience with "i am the boss, you slave" attitude has only been with clarinetists trained in England..... i am sure that my "anecdotal" evidence has no signifigance... but as someone who plays both 1st and 2nd (plus solo and chamber stuff).... i like the "teamwork" attitude regardless of whether i'm 1st or 2nd as it seems to bring out the best in EVERYBODY
it's late and i've got to sleep
play good tunes
donald
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2002-10-18 21:19
Some principal players are so fun, secure, easygoing, respectful, and nice, that I have wanted to bend over backwards to respect them in return. Others have been so arrogant, disrespectful, bossy, and cocky (out of insecurity I think), that the motivation to work as a team runs pretty low. I am not making any assumptions about James, but in my experience the best way to "tell a 2nd player to be a second player" (in your words) is to be a gracious first player.
At the same time, the best thing you can do for an insecure section partner (in ANY position) is give them what they need. If they need affirmation, tell them what they do well. Never underestimate the unifying power of a sincere, deserved compliment. It will make them respect you more, too.
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