 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-10-10 22:27
Bela Bartok's wonderful Concerto for Orhcestra (which I've had the great fortune of playing in my a few times with various orchestras) has always given me cause of concern. I say this because, according to my orchestral score, there are EXACT timings specified for each section of the work - with EXACT metronome markings indicated. As I don't have an annotated urtext edition of this work - I have no idea as to whether these markings are Bartoks (I can only assume they are).
After the terrific and insightful Debussy Rhapsodie thread (very recently) I was pondering the question of artistic license when it comes to a conductor's (and the a lesser extent an orchestra's) right(?) to "fool around" with tempo indications.
The Bartok Concerto for Orchestra is a classic example of explicit directions given for its performance - therefore, every recording made of this masterpiece (if performed "correctly") should be exactly 39.7 minutes long (whatever the time is - I was never good at adding up minutes - too confusing for my ill-formed left brain.).
Your thoughts on this are appreciated.
diz, Sydney
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-10-11 07:25
It's an interesting question Diz. I am inclined to try to follow the composers' metronome markings as closely as possible. But I was amazed once hearing a recording of Stravinsky conductong his own works, including the Octet. The metronome markings a VERY different from the ones he wrote in the score. Where does that leave us?!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-11 13:07
Note that in many of Straninsky's performances they certainly don't follow the metonome markings at al times. I would like to refer readers to the Osborne book on Karajan about his comments on how the tempo markings are just one part of interpeting a piece.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-11 17:58
I remember talking with Joe Livelli, a fine clarinetist who did either a master's thesis or a Ph.D. dissertation on Bartok. He said that Bartok was fascinated by the Golden Ratio, which, for you mathematicians, is an irrational number (like pi) derived by dividing a line segment AB into two segments, one longer, AC, and one shorter, CB, such that the length of AB is to the length of AC
as the length of AC is to CB. This works out to approximately 1.618 (followed by an infinite number of additional decimal places).
The Golden Ratio apparently has something about it built into human perception. A Golden Rectangle, with its sides in that ratio, is thought to be particularly pleasing esthetically. It's approximately the shape of a wide-screen tv picture. Perception tests have found that people can detect smaller departures from the Golden Rectangle than they can from a square.
Joe told me that Bartok constructed his music using the Golden Ratio, so that two-part phrases are divided according to it, sections of movements are divided according to it, and the lengths of various movements, including the number of measures and the timing, are also in it. That's why Bartok's movement timings are given down to the second.
No human sense of rhythm could make entire movements time out the second, and Bartok presented the times as calculations of what it would be in an ideal world.
A Google search on Bartok and "golden ratio" or "golden section" gets over 100 hits.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-10-11 18:51
Interesting comments Ken for sure. I know that even within the given tempi that are indicated certainly phrases can be tapered and or shortened or certain aspects of phrases nuanced etc. In spite of all this mathematical aspect to his music the music certainly can be interpreted with different moods according to the conductors whim even within the context of a specified mm-metronome marking/. In fact Karajan speaks about how prases can be quite plastic and shaped so differently from one another that it makes for a challenge to the musicality of a group or ensemble. Another note is that Koussevitsky who premiered put cuts in the finale!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-10-11 21:36
When the Szell/Cleveland recoring of the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra came out, the reviewers said it was even better than the Reiner/Chicago recording, but was nevertheless unacceptable because for some reason he made a 4-bar cut in the last movement.
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Author: BOC
Date: 2002-10-11 22:14
Interesting that you comment only on American orchestras performing this work - there are are fine orchestral versions of this work availble from European orchestras and a damned fine one with the Melbourne Symphony (Iwaki).
Nevertheless, my other comment about the Bartok is that there also appears to be two "sanctoined" versions of the last movement and I've never heard a recording where Bartok's original version is performed - it is a truncated version of the "popular" (longer) ending.
If anyone knows of a recording with this version, I'd love to hear it.
By the way - is there a NY Phil version on CD?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-10-11 23:01
There is a NY Philharmonic version with Boulez conducting.
When this LP was issued in 1972 it was done in quadraphonic sound (yes, you read correctly). I own a copy of that recording, and on a 4 channel system the sound was truly amazing.
The subsequent transfer to CD was a huge disappointment.
The cd is issued by Sony - #87710...GBK
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-10-11 23:24
Ken, the cut is much larger than 4 measures. I don't have my score handy but Szell cuts out the entire transitional section before the Coda, probably around 30 or 40 measures.
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Author: david dow
Date: 2002-10-12 00:57
Dear Ken: Damn I wish they released the Szell one-man that would be nice! I like the leinsdorf one with Boston and Cioffi a heck of alot! It seems the other one I like is the Solti Chicago one on Decca.
Sincerely
D Dow
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Author: david dow
Date: 2002-10-12 01:00
Karajan made a very nice record in berlin in 66, some players should check Leister out for sure. Also check Dorati in concertgebouw on the cheap Eloquence label, some nice work on the Reform Boehmn from our freind george Pietersen. Beautiful record from Amsterdam....
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