 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-10-01 01:00
From all of my readings, it appears that contact cement is pretty much the standard for gluing cork to various parts of the clarinet. Is there anything out there which is safer? i.e., low odor, non-explosive, non-toxic, and yet can be easily removed with common adhesive removal chemicals? I used Stix-All on a trial basis with a fan blowing across the bench as well as against the side of my head and my eyes burned for almost 2 days. The warnings on the side of contact cement containers scare me to the point that I won't even try it.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Dan
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Author: Willie
Date: 2002-10-01 03:48
They DO make an odorless (sorta) and safer contact cement. I believe the bottle I found was at Wal Mart. However, it is a big bottle and most will harden up before you use it. I bought it late at night in a pinch as I had to finnish up a job that night and couldn't find any Weldwood or Permatex brands in stock anywhere. For adheisive qualities, though, I prefer the old fashioned Weldwood brand.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-10-01 04:24
I use contact cements for formica work.
I have a preference for the solvent based (explosive) type as I feel it makes a stronger bond. The small amount for a clarinet cork shouldnt be too bad with fumes (compared to the pint or more I sread at a time on a large countertop.) but still have lots of ventalation and no smoking/ candles/ appliance flames including pilots. Even better work outdoors in warm weather, BUT both types are very sensitive to temp. and you will get a poor bond below 60 degrees F or so. Follow instructions for drying time and re-coating porus materials.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-01 04:36
Hi, Dan
Contact cement is Not the only glue used nowadays but it's probably the most popular. It contains tolulol, M.E.K. and maybe other stuff that can be very irritating, even toxic, under the best of conditions. Some folks are just plain alergic, surely much more sensitive to such stuff than others. Some people cannot tolerate latex in any form - and it can be much worse than just a headache etc. The list of irritants is long and growing daily. So, it's a good idea to investigate options.
In addition to Willie's already mentioned product, you might want to consider these:
For decades stick or flake shellac was the 'universal' adhesive. Some techs still will use nothing else. It requires heat to melt it to a useable state - when it hardens it's very tough stuff. Denatured alcohol for cleanup.
Micro pad cement comes in a tube, if you can still find it, and is pretty easy to use. Most techs I know do not like it at all. Its drying time is on the slow side. Cleanup and thin with denatured alcohol.
Glue gun sticks are popular. Again you need to heat it to make it workable.
Super glue will work well if you're very fast... ssswwiiisssshhh -- Wanna see it again?
I hope the list of options grows because some folks just have a bad time with even everyday products that others take for granted. We need all the alternatives we can find these days.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-02 05:06
Shellac is a significant contact allergen to some people. heating it could be hazzardous.
Superglue has fumes whic are not particularly harmful, but very irritating.
Glue gun does not stick well to metal unless the metal is heated, in which case you almost certainly get a mess.
If you use a contact glue such as Evostik with a VERY small nozzle, rather than a can and brush, in the very small quantities used for key corks you probably won't even smell it, and if you do it a ventillated area you definitely won't.
Dan, I think you are over-reacting. You could kill yourself with water too! I've never heard of a technician actually suffering from its use, and they would be exposed to thousands of times as much of it as you would be in a year, and the average builder will probably be exposed to a lot more still. (BTW The toluene is also a component of the fuel you put in your vehicle.) You'd better stop filling your tank!!
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-02 12:33
Gordon, I think you are "right on". Even the sun's radiation is harmful. I guess Evostik is only available down under as I've never heard of it in U.S.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-02 18:47
This is one of the few times I feel I must disagree. Gordon is not "right on" in regard to this topic.
If you've ever seen someone react to something they're severely alergic to, you may not be so quick to say they're 'over-reacting'. Even the tiniest amounts of some substances can cause frightening physical reactions in some people. In some cases swift medical attention is necessary.
The majority of us are not too bothered by most things. Those who are sensitive to one thing or another have a difficult time of it. It's not a matter of just 'take it like a man'. Often the person doesn't know he/she has a problem... until it happens. If you're bothered by something in that way, it's best to try to avoid it afterward because exposure to larger amounts could bring on a very serious situation.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-02 21:10
Point well taken ron; guess I've been lucky.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-03 00:28
A case in point - me - I can no longer smell things well at all. We all have done things in the past that we were unaware would have lasting effects. One should know if they are allergic or have irritation after the second exposure - often it takes a first exposure to sensititze those susceptible and a second exposure brings on the allergic reaction. Some may know after the first exposure that they are sensitive to the agent. If you show allergic reactions stay away from it and find a substitute.
Low levels of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) are more sinister because they can cause cumulative damage without a severe allergic reaction after exposure. My work environment has changed dramatically over my career and now certain chemicals are known to be carcinogens that I routinely used on the lab bench top. Other chemicals and VOCs now have permissable air concentration levels of safety that require that you use them in a negative pressure fume hood.
Granted, the quantities used in organic chemical synthesis are usually far greater than found in a tube or bottle of contact cement but the air concentrations in unventilated spaces can be above what are now classified as permissible levels. Hopefully the next generation of chemists, and repair persons, will have a better chance avoiding cumulative organ damage due to chemical and VOC exposures due to the new understanding of permissable air concentrations. If it says use in a ventillated space on the label -comply!
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-03 08:52
Ron, I totally agree that those who have a known sensitivity should be pretty careful.]
It is also of some concern that we don't know which products a particular person may build up an intollerance to, as Omar mentions.
However Dan's original post seemed to indicate an extreme reaction to reading of warnings, rather than to a known personal allergy problem.
If I adopted an equally extreme reaction to my environment I would not eat many of our common veges, most of which contain significant natural toxins, especially the organically grown ones, I would remove synthetic materials from my home, I would vreak out at the dioxin that naturally comes from the soil, I would keep well away from NZ's geothermal region, I would never go near a road, I would never contemplate a cell phone, I would keep well away from industrial areas and the carcinogens from vehicle exhaust.... Good gracious, I even drank my father's comfrey wine, comfrey now being known to be not a health food, but to cause liver damage.
Instead I ensure that a major part of my diet is a wide variety of fruit and veges, to keep up antioxidant levels, to assist in dealing with these environmental toxins.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-10-03 12:46
Like carbon tet,Doc! Maybe I missed a point here as to whether we are talking about allergens or hazardous substances....or both. Most warnings that are put on labels are there because they are mandated by govt.regulations and/or the legal protection of the manufacturer.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-10-03 16:07
On most points, and you make many very good ones often, Gordon, I agree. I don't believe we should be overly cautious about Everything though. Yes, the whole world is a hazardous place, I know
I meant to convey that some people are more than usually sensitive to *some* things. They should try to find alternatives or avoid, as much as possible, contact with that particular 'stuff'.
Dan's burning eyes (for nearly two days) would indicate to me that an alternate to the irritant be sought. Unless... the irritation was brought on by eyestrain from reading the label.
I was trying to get a list of alternatives going for him.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-10-03 16:38
But Dan's experience with Stix-All has no relevance to the typical contact adhesive, which is a totally different animal. Contact adhesive may well be an appropriate alternative for Dan.
Unless my search deceives me, Stix-All is a silicone elastomer adhesive with an odour of acetic acid (vinegar). "Easy to use and safe, will not bond skin. Nonflammable, no solvents"
It is interesting that the MSDS sheet, http://www.unitednow.com/Health/MSDS/Adhesives/CementSuperGlue/BOR-E650.pdf
mentions nothing about eye irritation.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-03 17:39
TKS for the link, Gordon, will read. I've had a bit of chem lab experience, and pretty much agree with LOH. I'd like to also suggest keeping-to-a-minimum most solvent exposures with aromatics [toluene and xylene are not as bad as benzene], ketones [nail polish remover etc], chlorinated [halogenated] hydrocarbons and many others. As I recall the chem. of superglue, it releases HCN [cyanide] upon polymerization, rather dangerous?? Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-10-03 19:02
Don Berger wrote:
>
> TKS for the link, Gordon, will read. I've had a bit of
> chem lab experience, and pretty much agree with LOH. I'd like
> to also suggest keeping-to-a-minimum most solvent exposures
> with aromatics [toluene and xylene are not as bad as benzene],
> ketones [nail polish remover etc], chlorinated [halogenated]
> hydrocarbons and many others. As I recall the chem. of
> superglue, it releases HCN [cyanide] upon polymerization,
> rather dangerous?? Don
Only under high temperature. See http://onin.com/fp/cyanoho.html for another interesting use ...
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-10-03 20:31
Mark, As I briefly looked at your ref., it doesn't seem to apply to the "initial" glueing procedure, where the polymerization-drying of the cyanoacrylate does release HCN, but to later ?decomposition? of the glue [where the CN is long gone] for exam. purposes. I'll try to read carefully as to what "fuming" means. Don
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