 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2002-10-01 03:23
First, I'd like to apologize for the short subject. They didn't give me much room. I asked a LONG time ago how much my buffet clarinet was worth and what kind it was. The serial number began with a K and couldn't find it on any of the lists. I asked my music teacher at my new college (Dr. Michael Caputo) who is a professional clarinest, and he gave me the lowdown. Here it is for anyone that has been wondering. . . .
A while ago (he didn't say the year, but I assume before the 70's or so), France was making some buffet clarinets. They stamped "Evette Schaefer Paris" or something to that effect on it (I'm too lazy to go get my clarinet and look). Here's what that clarinet was. . .
That clarinet was supposed to be the new Buffet R-13. The highest end professional model Buffet if I'm correct. Well, this clarinet was just shy of what buffet had wanted for their professional model, so Buffet said, "Ah . . . make it a student model." Therefore, this clarinet is like the best student model made. Or at least Dr. Caputo says so. And I trust him. So I'm pretty happy to have this clarinet. And now anyone who was wondering what the "K" means, that is probably it. The "K" combined with Evette Schaefer.
Goodbye all. I'm on the way to finding an affordable clarinet teacher for private lessons. I live in NJ in Wayne. If anyone knows one, lemme know so I can get better. Thanks.
Alexi
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-10-01 11:59
This information is incomplete and incorrect. I began purchasing these instruments, and also researching these instruments. There is alot of information in the archives right on the Bulletin Board. First of all the Evettes were made in Germany, and the Evette Schaeffers were made in France. Evette Schaeffers and Evette Schaeffer Master Models were separate factory runs, and they were NOT rejected R-13's. The E-S's were hand finished like the pro models, however. There is alot of information here, it's too much to type in one paragraph.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-01 15:47
>>>>First of all the Evettes were made in Germany<<<<<
Not true! Older Evettes were made in France.
>>>>Evette Schaeffers and Evette Schaeffer Master Models were separate factory runs...<<<<<
No! They were not separate runs. Each Buffet clarinet in the main factory started as professional level instrument. And only later in the process some of them became E&S or were sent to the other factory and became Evette. Usually those instruments were fitted with cheaper keys and received little or no undercutting. Why so many of them were rejected as a pro instrument? There are a lot of reasons. Fist is a wood. You will never guess quality/density of the wood, you have to cut the barrels firs to find out. Second mistakes/flows in the manufacturing process. Hey humans make mistakes and equipment wears of or go out of adjustment. There are many other reasons WHY.
>>>>>and they were NOT rejected R-13's<<<<<
Name: Mark Charette ()
Date: 12-23-99 10:32
From Francois:
---------------
Dear Mark,
The master model was made by the same persons who made the R13 and yes they are R13 with little cosmetic flaws but nothing is wrong acoustically. Musically Yours. Merry Christmas. Francois Kloc Manager of Woodwinds North America Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments Inc.
____________________________________________________
Unless you are stubborn or close minded there is no other reason to believe otherwise. The question is AT WHAT POINT in the manufacturing process it occurred.
sfalexi,
Buffet started making K series around 1930 and continued until they became E-13. IMO K-series instruments represented particular and popular in France bore design/model. K-series instruments do seem to have been made at the same time with prefixes other than K
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-01 16:01
K-series E&S (K179) from around 1930. This instrument was SOLD for $400 on e-Bay in July 2002
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=4&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting"><p>
Barrel is not original
</p>
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=5&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-01 16:03
K-series E&S (K179) from around 1930. This instrument was SOLD for $400 on e-Bay in July 2002
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=4&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting"><p>
Barrel is not original
</p>
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=5&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-01 16:06
K-series E&S (K179) from around 1930. This instrument was SOLD for $400 on e-Bay in July 2002
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=4&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting"><p>
Barrel is not original
</p>
<img src="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892788737&indexURL=5&photoDisplayType=2#ebaylargephotohosting">
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-01 16:32
K-series E&S (K179) from around 1930. This instrument was SOLD for $400 on e-Bay in July 2002
<img src="http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_2989f718c8e7f8a7bb86bfe4dabbfc0b/i-2_B_L.JPG">
<img src="http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_2989f718c8e7f8a7bb86bfe4dabbfc0b/i-5_B_L.JPG"><p>
Barrel is not original
</p>
<img src="http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_2989f718c8e7f8a7bb86bfe4dabbfc0b/i-6_B_L.JPG"><p>
Mark, sorry for the earlier screw up trying to post pictures. Can you delete them?</p>
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-10-01 18:09
Ask John Butler too-- he has had a number of E&S Master Model horns through his hands in the last several years along with many classic jazz horns that he has expertly refurbished. There are many differences within the K series - too many to document now without looking back through my notes which are buried in manufacturing debris at the moment. The two K series that I have owned had distinctly different keywork although the serial numbers were in close proximity to each other indicating either an abrupt change in design or finishing in two different areas - both were French made.
The Doctor
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Author: Pat Parkin
Date: 2002-10-02 00:22
I have had about 15 Evette and Schaeffer clarinet in hand over the last three or four years, of which about 6 were Master Models. I also tend to take a close look at a lot of these for sale on E-bay and often query the seller for details. I believe that they tend to fall into three groups.
First, older clarinets with "old-style" key work, which is identified by a right-angle lower bridge, rather than the "s-curve" lower bridge. The change in keywork seems to have appeared some time between serial numbers K6737 and K8561. I speculate that this change occurred at the time the R-13 was introduced. Some of these have undercut toneholes on the lower joint and some do not. The key work on these is, however, different than Vytas's example above. They all had separate posts for the A and G# keys and two pivots for the left hand pinky keys instead of just one.
Second, newer instruments with the "s-curve" lower bridge and non-"swoosh" style fork-B keys. These instruments seem to all have undercut tone-holes on the lower joint. They also do not have the cut-outs under the right pinky cluster like R-13s have. There is some variation on these regarding where the words "Master Model" are located. Most the instruments in this group that I have seen have the words above and seperated a bit from the oval logo. A few have the words under the oval logo, and a few (older ones?) have the words along the curving top of the logo. These all appear to have a poly-cylindrical upper joint, as measured with my crude home made "T-gauges".
The above two groups seem to be consecutive in serial number. Regarding serial number vintage, I have seen two original owner statements that K8222 sold new in 1958, and K10593 new in 1961. This brings up the third group of E&S Master Models.
These are what I call exceptions. I have three examples of this group. The first was listed on E-Bay in the last year, with a K7XXX serial numbers. It had keywork like an R-13, including the cutouts under the pinky cluster. The "Master Model" words were above and apart from the logo.
The second closed on Sept. 15 on E-bay and is still viewable today: Item # 905672808.
This has old-style keywork, cutouts under the pinky cluster, but has a serial number of K42304. "Master Model" on this one is below the oval logo, at least on the barrel and bell. One has to wonder how an instrument with the serial this high has older keywork. I think this is a regular Buffet production clarinet from the late '40s or early '50s with the K appended to the front of a regular Buffet (non E&S) serial number. This certainly supports the "cosmetic rejection" idea.
The final "exception" clarinet I am currently playing. It has serial number 51602. That's right, no K. With the exception of the words stamped on it, it is virtually identical to R-13 serial number 62013, when I compare them side by side. "Master Model" on this one follows the curve on top of the oval logo. I think this example also support the cosmetic rejection idea.
Hope this helps further the discussion.
Pat Parkin
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-02 14:49
Dear Doctor,
You are right. Buffet keywork went through a number of changes and can be used to date the instruments. Deferent key design probably will not make an instrument sound any deferent. I basically was referring to K-series BORE design that French players fell in love.....V
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-10-02 15:04
That is good information, Pat. I did "oops" with Evettes only made in Germany. I actually owned a couple Evettes made in France. Because there is not any accurate, recorded information, all information is a summary of information gathered by people who have "picked up" bits of information. It's even in the archives here that Francois Kloc may not have all of the information about Evettes and E-S's, because he is not one of the "oldtimers". We also don't know to which years of E-S's he is referencing. There are many postings in the archives. There was a very good posting about the serial #'s of the E-S factory runs and Buffet pro factory runs that was very informative. The Evettes were revised just as the Buffet pro models changed over the years. The best bet is to PLAY the instruments. I had an older exceptional "Evette" Master Model that rivaled R-13's. I love it when this subject comes up, because more information and opinions comes forth. Sandra
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-02 16:29
Pat,
I own D-series Master Model #D405xx that IMO deserves some attention. It was stated on this board that this serial number falls into West German Evette Master Model category. But that's not entirely true. Yes, I do believe it was assembled (but not made) in Germany. LJ just above the serial number is stamped "Made in France". "Master Model" appears only once on the UJ. Older German type logo. "EVETTE" in the oval and Buffet Crampon below. Undercut tone holes, polycylindrical upper joint, left hand (pinkie finger) keywork not pinned together, but just overlapping. "Ears" on the LJ bridge key vs. UJ. There is hard to spot Cosmetic flaw (11mm x 4mm) in the wood on the UJ in between G# and Bb trill keys. I think this example also support the cosmetic rejection idea. I can speculate that this clarinet was rejected as pro model and was sent to Germany to become an International Model, but it turned out to be better than that and was stamped "Master Model"
This clarinet has amassing low register the fattest I ever heard. I compared it side by side with two R-13's I have (2132xx and 1456xx). Master Model played better than the first one but was beaten by the second from 1974. Even amassing low register of the MM was overshadowed with overall beautiful tone of R-13 that I really can't describe in words.......VK
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2002-10-02 21:41
But, here we are again, mixing apples and oranges. The Evette models were the Buffet 3rd line (E-11) and the Evette & Schaeffers were the 2nd line (E-13) of the Buffet production. Part of the confusion about the E & S is that someone always seems to put in information about the Evettes in the discussion.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-10-03 03:35
Douglas, that may be subjective, as well. The information that the people posted here is accurate, and these discerning posters know that E-S's and Evettes are not the same instruments. Both models are worth discussing. There is much subjectivity of the differences and many theories, including the Evette=E-11 and Evette-Schaeffer=E-13. Mr Schaeffer, who worked with the Evette-Schaeffer models, is probably the only who can truthfully tell us what differences there were intended...but he is long passed on.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2002-10-03 12:52
Sandra, my concern is not with the people who have posted their information here, but the others who read and then become confused about the E & S and Evette models. As to Messrs. Evette and Schaeffer, they were the head of the Buffet company and "worked" with not only the Evette and E & S but the top level Buffet models as well. Read this statement from a Buffet catalog c.1960: "the Messrs. Evette and Schaeffer succeeded the original founders of the world's foremost woodwind factory, Buffet-Crampon. Their untiring efforts and unrelenting search for perfection continued the proud traditions of Buffet and made the name world-famous." The E-11 and E-13 models did not originate just at the time that Buffet put their logo on all their models, but long before. In this same catalog the Evette & Schaeffer clarinets are identified as ME-13 (marked Master Model) and E-13. The Evette plastic clarinet is B-10. None of this is "theory".
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-10-03 16:49
Douglas,
If R-13 is an apple and E-11 is an orange... you are a banana....V
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Author: SVSorna05
Date: 2003-07-17 03:43
Hmm well I have an E&S K-Series that I purchased o about a year and a half ago K22273 c. 1969 and I have to say that i am truly amazed at this sweet sounding horn. I played my friend's R13 c.1999 and i honestly think the K series outplayed the R13 handsdown so right now I dont think id play an R13 if one was dropped in my lap!
-Dain-
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-07-17 05:15
I also enjoy this subject everytime it comes up.
Pat, my E&S, K9008, was new in 1960, and seems to fit your estimates. Except it has the Master Model curved above the oval, like you guess is mostly the older style. It is not undercut, and I can't tell if it is polycylindrical.
Douglas, are you sure your catalogue is about 1960? I have one which I assume is from before 1960 (the pictures show the throat G# and A keys on the same post, there is no mention of Robert Carree and the polycylindrical bore, the 'Master Model' is straight and below the oval, and the Saxes are only 'Dynaction', not 'Super Dynaction'). I guess 1950, and now I see that mine has that same quote you mention; I bet we have the same catalogue.
By the way, everyone, I think this old catalogue is great. Many of you know a lot about these old horns; are you interested in the information from the catalogues. Has anyone ever tried to collect a number of different ones? Would it be interesting if I took pictures of this one?
Wayne Thompson
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-07-17 06:21
Hi,
I also enjoy this recurring thread. I bought my D series Evette in 1968 or 1969 when it was brand new and just imported from France. It plays as well as any R-13 I have ever seen, and better than most. I am now convinced that it is a "Master" even though it doesn't say that anywhere on the horn.
I love that horn and wish I could figure a way to get it back from my daughter who plays it in college. She doesn't want anything to do with a trade for my full Boehm Buffets!
I am convinced that any brand and line of horns has wide variability between individual examples. Once in a while you hit on a supurb example which has no right to be wonderful. Enjoy the horn and just smile at those pricey professional horn... what really matters is the sound you make with it!
Cheers, Terry
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-17 12:01
Hi Terry and others,
Yes, this is a great thread which I always enjoy. I have had three Master Models, one of which was perfect. I did sell it to a friend in my CB and he seems to enjoy it very much. The 12th was a little wide for me (which I could have probably cured with a Moneing barrel). This was a 5 digit Master Model.
The others were K models which did not play quite as well. However, none of these clarinets played better than my Selmer 9* (right on pitch all over the horn) and my Leblanc Dynamic 2 (a wonderful clarinet that I seem to prefer).
HRL
Post Edited (2003-07-17 16:03)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-07-17 16:50
Attachment: E&S_1930.jpg (80k)
Attachment: E&S_1930 _LH_keys.jpg (66k)
K-series instruments do seem to have been made at the same time with prefixes other than K.
I added a picture of the "K-series E&S" (K179) from around 1930. Notice shared "A" and "G#" post and no adjusting screw for the throat "A". This instrument had undercut tone holes and 100% identical keys found on a Pre R-13 from that era. German silver key-work was a bit softer on E&S.
Another picture shows the single, concentric pivot design for the left-hand E/B and F#/C# keys. I believe this design was changed to separate posts in about 1929-30.
Vytas Krass
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-07-17 19:34
Interesting and complex subject! The Master model Evette that I owned for a while had keywork that seemed identical to R13's, I thought. It was not undercut and the low register was unfocussed and flat in pitch.
After undercutting most of the toneholes, the lower register was much better in tune with a more focussed sound, and the in-tune upper register was unchanged. Later it was sold for about what I paid for it.
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Author: crzy4musik
Date: 2008-01-21 21:45
okay so, i have a question reguarding this....
i have an e flat clarinet with a four diget serial number with Evette and Schaeffer stamped on it.
Any idea how old it is? and is it a student model then? im rather confused
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