 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetgiggirl
Date: 2002-09-23 13:41
Dspite repeated greasing of the corks on my brand new Leblanc 'C' it became increasingly difficult to separate the two main joints. My repairer said that this was due to 'settling in', altered the size of the joints and advised me not to use cork grease in future, but to use petrolium jelly (Vaseline) instead. I had no further problems with this clarinet.
However, I am now experiencing the same problem with my older (c1985) Bb Buffet clarinet. I have tried using both cork grease and Vaseline, but the problem persists and seems to be getting worse.
Does anyone know what is causing this problem? Is it something I am doing wrong? Should I use cork grease or Vaseline?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-09-23 13:58
clarinetgiggirl wrote:
>
> , but to use petrolium jelly
> (Vaseline) instead.
And of course he'll generate more work for him/herself when those corks come off ... Vaseline is not a particularly good product for corks or cork cements.
I'm sure some of our repairers can tell you more. Personally, I'd find someone different to work on <b>my</b> clarinet.
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Author: John Moses
Date: 2002-09-23 14:17
Mark is right, get a new repair guy.
In the meantime, try a new product I found recently:
"Doctor Slick"
It's an all natural product, so no harm can be done to your corks or to you. It's better than Vaseline, which is a petrolium product, and shouldn't be used on corks.
"Doctor Slick" is available at most good repair shops, or on his site:
www.doctorsprod.com
Good luck,
JJM
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Author: Mark S.
Date: 2002-09-23 14:20
Mark C. is so right. Vaseline is for baby bottom and Miss America's lips, not for cork -- it is bad for the cork and its adhesive, and won't do the wood any favors. Doc and others can expound on the details. Cork grease is the right solution for the corks.
If the joints are truly binding (wood on wood) take it to a good technician to make the appropriate adjustments. Even older instruments can change dimensions slightly and never go back. There are several great craftsman scattered across the country (I use Brannen WW in Chicago) who can sort out your problems.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-23 14:25
Telling someone to use Petroleum jelly on clarinet cork is not good advice. Most corks are glued on with contact cement nowadays - a (liquid) petroleum product is used to remove excess cememt. Imagine what petroleum jelly will do when it eventually get through the cork to the glue :|
(Clue: It destroys its adhesive properties)
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Author: clarinetgiggirl
Date: 2002-09-23 15:04
Right, so Vaseline is not a good idea! I have looked up doctorsprod.com and also found this advice:
Traditional “cork grease” is a petroleum based product that clogs the pores, fine structure and over time reduces the corks ability to absorb moisture, compress and rebound, ultimately leads to disintegration of the cork itself and leads to loosening the glue holding the cork on the tenon.
Gosh, why is everything to do with clarinets so complicated!!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-09-23 15:34
"Gosh, why is everything to do with clarinets so complicated!!!"
If clarinets were easy, everybody would play them.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-23 15:37
So, your repairer took it upon him/herself to alter the size of the joints on a brand-new Clarinet? And you should use Vaseline to lube the corks? Well, well, well.... My suggestion? Locate a genuine repair technician *NOW*. I believe that Stephen Howard <shwoodwind@gmx.co.uk> is a source for good work and may be able to name someone useful in your area.
cgg also enquires: "Gosh, why is everything to do with clarinets so complicated!!!" Because we are fortunate. You see, the Clarinet is something we love because it needs us. Rather like someone who marries a jerk, we see the amazing possibilities of dealing with this instrument if we ever get it tamed. Of course, it may be that no one has been *completely* successful in such an effort since Anton Stadler. So, how are we fortunate? Because the Clarinet may make us irritated, confused, frustrated, or even totally disgusted -- but we will never, never, ever be bored.
Regards,
John
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-23 15:43
Oh, swell... easy to create a link on this BB, but only if it has a URL protocol. Anyway, Steve Howard's email address is shwoodwind@yourwiggmx.co.uk. Be sure to remove yourwig before emailing him.
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Author: Frank Mochol
Date: 2002-09-23 17:35
If you've been using cork grease freely, sometimes it sort of builds up....try wiping off as much as you can ( like with a paper towel...gently) then apply some cork grease ( or the new stuff the above threads refer) sparingly. If problem persists, you need a repair person to look at it.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-23 17:41
No need to be overly alarmed, Clarinetgiggirl. I didn't mean to imply you should be. I meant to convey only that the more informed we are, the better shoppers we become.
Regular cork grease or Vaseline will not likely cause your corks or glue to disintegrate over night Petroleum products will, however, hasten the process and shorten their life expectancy to perhaps months rather than years.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-09-23 19:55
>Traditional "cork grease" is a petroleum based product that clogs the pores, fine structure and OVER TIME reduces the corks ability to absorb moisture, compress and rebound, ultimately leads to disintegration of the cork itself and leads to loosening the glue holding the cork on the tenon.<
I do not recommend to use or not to use Vaseline to anyone, but a lot of folks used it in the past or still using it right now. When I did not know better I also used Vaseline for about 12 years and as far as I can remember there was NO HARM done to the corks, wood or glue? How long does it take to see effects of BAD petroleum products? OR! If it's good for Miss America's lips it's good for my corks? Hehe
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-23 22:35
Vytas. Suddenly the entire cork is likely to turn freely where it is glued, possibly making the instrument VERY difficult to take apart. Also, there are many parameters involved with loss of function of cork, and the substance deterioration can also be linked to saliva exposure, 'design' thickness for the cork, fit of the tenons, adhesive used, and a holst of others.
Several respondents here are writing from the perspective of valid generalized observations, having worked on not your clarinet, but hundreds or thousands of others. The condemnation of vaseline is valid!
Almost every marketed cork grease, especially the more viscous types, evaporate to a very high viscosity deposit on the cork. This is sufficiently viscous to 'claim' significant space while assembling the clarinet, and as a consequence, crushing the cork more than necessary. In the end, this, combined with the loss of resilience the grease has caused for the cork, means that the joint becomes more and more difficult to assemble. When the sticky residue is cleaned off the joint almost falls apart.
With use of one of the very few good cork greases this syndrome is eliminated or minimized.
John Moses wrote regarding Dr Slick grease, "It's an all natural product, so no harm can be done to your corks or to you.' Although the cork grease is great, the statement is complete nonsense. There are millions of natural substances that are exceedingly harmful, coal dust, dioxin, opium, comfrey, snake venom, and hydrogen sulphide to name a few. The Doctor's other product is largely synthetic and is also an outstanding cork grease.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-23 22:51
"Gosh, why is everything to do with clarinets so complicated!!!"
In this case, it is because cork grease suppliers, almost invariably, want to sell you a very, very cheap product at a very high price and get rich on our gullibility. The shops join in with the game. It's called marketing, and it seems to work, or they wouldn't do it.
There is far less profit in the marketing the expensive, high-quality cork grease materials if they are sold at the same price, and most players would not buy it at a considerably higher price.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-09-23 23:53
You're right, Gordon. But it's a shame that you are. For the price of a couple of reeds, a player could get some good cork grease that they would still be using when the reeds are long gone. That's not even to mention the money people will spend on vintage mouthpieces and exotic ligatures - how in the world can people not justify buying decent cork grease.
There's nothing but Dr.'s Products in my case, and I feel priviledged to use them and support his contribution to clarineting.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-24 00:43
The facts are simple: if Dr. Henderson didn't do a lot of research on his products because he finds it interesting and entertaining, he wouldn't sell it as inexpensively as he does. So if some other commercial company went through all that rain dance to develop similar materials, they'd charge a ton of money. You bet, we're fortunate to have him on our side.
regards,
John
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Author: Willie
Date: 2002-09-24 02:08
I feel for the poor repairman that will have to try and glue new cork to those grease saturated tenons later.
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Author: John Moses
Date: 2002-09-24 04:29
"John Moses wrote regarding Dr Slick grease, "It's an all natural product, so no harm can be done to your corks or to you.' Although the cork grease is great, the statement is complete nonsense. There are millions of natural substances that are exceedingly harmful, coal dust, dioxin, opium, comfrey, snake venom, and hydrogen sulphide to name a few."
I don't think our Gordon (NZ) friend gets it. What I meant by "all natural" was what the Dr. describes below.
If Gordon is using any of his "harmful" ingredients on his corks or elsewhere, I suggest he cease and desist.
The good Dr. says, "This especially formulated, all natural blend of expensive non-toxic exotic waxes, oils, antioxidants, stabilizers and Slippery Elm Bark Extract (Nature’s Teflon™), controls the dimensional stability and water balance of cork while enabling smooth assembly and disassembly of your instrument."
JJM
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Author: Alex
Date: 2002-09-24 05:24
It could very well just be the kind of cork grease you're using. I'm guessing you're putting on the standard $1 chapstick-tube cork grease from your local music store.
Some brands of said grease (e.g. the Buffet that comes with an R-13) are thin and slippery and work very well.
However, I find that most generic cork grease is gooey and thick and makes the joints hard to assemble/disassemble.
There are *some* good cork grease types out there, though. My general test is that if half the container will come out with a swipe of your finger, it's no good. On the other hand, if it can only be applied very thinly and doesn't stick too well to your finger, it won't get stuck on your cork either and should do the trick.
I've had luck with Buffet (chapstick-tube, as mentioned), as well as the little circular "Micro" cork grease. Also, my teacher has a circular container of Yamaha Professional Soft cork grease, which works even better than my other two suggestions (don't buy Yamaha "Premium", it's lousy).
Good luck!
-Alex
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-09-24 11:52
John Moses wrote:
>
> "What I meant by
> "all natural" was what the Dr. describes below.
I think we all knew what you meant. It's just that the phrase "all natural" is often misconstrued as being better and "good for you", while it really has no such meaning. Indeed, many (not all, though) of the so-called "man made" products are found in nature - the "man-made" part really comes from the fact that we make it in bulk.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-24 13:08
I really only objected to the work "so", used in the sense to mean "therefore". It was this implied logic that was nonsense, as per what Mark wrote.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-24 13:08
Alex, have you not yet discovered that the REAL yardstick with which to measure cork greases are hte Doctor's Products as mentioned earlier in htis thread.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2002-09-24 13:56
By the way, I don't think Miss America (or those vying for the position) put Vaseline on their lips. They put it on their teeth so that they can maintain their smiles more easily.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-09-24 15:57
>Suddenly the entire cork is likely to turn freely where it is glued, possibly making the instrument VERY difficult to take apart.<
>I feel for the poor repairman that will have to try and glue new cork to those grease saturated tenons later.<
>Vaseline is for baby bottom and Miss America's lips, not for cork -- it is bad for the cork and its adhesive, and won't do the wood any favors.<
Can anyone answer simple question? How long does it take to see BAD effect of Vaseline?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-24 16:29
How long does it take to have a heart attack if one consumes 200 grams of swine fat every day? I can't answer that either. Of course, I'm not concerned, because I simply don't do it.
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark S.
Date: 2002-09-24 19:20
Vytas, the petro jelly can work its way in around the edges of the cork and start loosening the adhesive immediately. Just takes a little of that and you can tear the cork right off the joint. I've had a few students using that goo before they got to me and lo-and-behold, I have to send them for new tennon corks. The way I look at it, if someone like Bill Brannen says "don't do it", then don't do it. Just plain good clarinet hygiene.
And on a related note, if there are any senior citizens out there vying for Mrs. Ft. Lauderdale, don't use vaseline on your dentures. It will dissolve the adhesive and make your teeth fall out...
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Author: Metalclarinetgigman
Date: 2002-09-25 21:01
"Gosh, why is everything to do with clarinets so complicated!!!"
All love affairs are complicated, if a girl friend says to me, "ITS ME OR THAT DAMNED CLARINET, she loses.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-09-27 01:58
Don Poulsen - thanks, your Miss America remark made me guffaw!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-09-27 03:32
diz wrote:
>
> Don Poulsen - thanks, your Miss America remark made me
> guffaw!!
From your one liners recently ... I can see you're easily amused ...
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