 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jean
Date: 2002-09-21 14:54
I need a recommendation for a trill fingering. Throat a to c.
Thanks,
Jean
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-09-21 16:14
Try trilling with the two top side keys, or the speaker key and the top side key (a bit awkward).
By the way, I'd call that a tremolo rather than a trill??
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Author: Jean
Date: 2002-09-21 16:25
That is what we have been trying (the two side keys) The other does sound terribly ackward. You are correct in calling that a tremolo...that term to me always sounds like a string term.
Jean
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-21 20:41
To reach C as a throat tone, you need to depress: the A key, the speaker key, and the two upper side keys. Some Clarinets will produce a passable -- albeit muffled -- A by depressing the speaker key alone. Thus going from there to C will require the first fingers of both hands, keying the A key and the two uppper side keys at the same time. This will be a much easier tremolo rather than keying and releasing the side keys and the speaker key simultaneously.
Regards,
John
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-21 21:10
Aside from JMcAulay's always insightful, off-beat (and always correct) suggestions, I would also recommend trying to increase your finger speed by using just the standard fingerings.
There are a number of good textbook exercises, specifically written to increase speed "across the break".
One such exercise which quickly comes to mind is found on pages 14 and 15 in Kalmen Opperman's - Modern Daily Studies for the Clarinet -Book 1.
Alternate fingering are fine, but should be used in conjuction with the specific passage. The notes which come before and after the tremolo will always determine if an alternate fingering is feasable...GBK
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-09-21 21:56
Another option to playing the A to C tremolo is to simply keep the right hand in place for the C (ie holes covered and pinky key pressed) and move only the left hand. With practice, it works quite well.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-22 03:24
Well, no doubt in future GBK will restrain himself from writing that my suggestions are always correct, for this time I will decline the opportunity to be in full agreement with him. GBK says: "The notes which come before and after the tremolo will always determine if an alternate fingering is feasable." It's an extremely strong word, that "always." I have a contrary offering. Considering the problem in question, I personally would rather maneuver from the throat A or the throat C to or from any other note on the Clarinet, going into or out of this A-C tremolo, instead of using throat A and Clarion C. Certainly, enhancing one's facility on the instrument is a great idea. But if you go back and forth from throat A to Clarion C, rolling L1 from the A key to first hole while simultaneously dropping L2 and L3 plus depressing T and R, you will be executing a fingering and control nightmare. I can think of nowhere I might have to go to or from either of these notes that would dictate such a difficult performance plan. I'll use the throat tones, thanks.
Of course you must understand two extremely important considerations:
1. GBK is, generally speaking, a much better Clarinetist than I.
2. I operate with an acute appreciation of the economy of energy.
And Dee: good point. Moving fewer fingers on any tremolo can't hurt.
Regards,
John
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-22 04:41
I think that JMcAulay's points are well taken in respect to an alternate fingerings making a difficult passage more manageable. A thorough knowledge of alternate fingerings is an essential tool to have at one's disposal, and these alternates must be committed to memory (for one cannot always carry around the Ridenour book forever), learned and practiced faithfully.
However, in the case of rapid notes going across the break, whether in tremolo or not, this is a fundamental clarinet skill which should be finely developed and continually practiced. I cited one exercise to reinforce this skill, there are countless others. If you think you have practiced enough exercises "going over the break and back", play one or two Bach inventions (or partitas) at speed. After being humbled by Mr Bach, I am certain you will be heading back to the Opperman book for more reinforcement.
When I work with students on trills (and tremolos) we are always striving to choose the appropriate fingering in the context of the notes which preceed and exit the trill. Just like in choosing high note fingerings, the important questions are: "What comes before?" and "What comes after?"
I like JMcAulay's plan of using as little energy as possible. That is precisely my entire philosophy of life...GBK
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2002-09-22 05:08
How did Marcellus handle that passage near the end of the rondo of the Mozart concerto, where he did the A-C-G-C-F-C-E-C-C-C-G-C runs? Just incredibly good technique on the standard fingerings? It's so fluid.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-22 05:30
Ralph G...It <b>was</b> incredibly fluid and accurate technique using the standard fingerings.
Precisely the point I was making in my above postings.
By the way, Marcellus had stated in numerous articles that he used <i>very few</i> alternate fingerings...GBK
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-09-22 07:50
Have you ever thought about investing in a C clarinet?! (the tremolo would be a lot easier from G to B-flat)
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Author: William
Date: 2002-09-22 15:29
"How did Marcellus handle that passage near the end of the rondo of the Mozart concerto"
*Practice Man, Practice* is one explanation--the "short" answer may simply be, TALENT.
IMHO, it really isn't that hard--I did it on my college recital and if I can play it, anyone can!!!
BTW, Marcellus's practice and advocancy of using "few alternative fingerings" was a continuance of Daniel Bonade's teachings.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-22 18:06
Albert system players find little difficulty with the 'A' to 'C' tremomo - you only have to co-ordinate register and (one) side trill for the 'C', leaving the 'A' in place. It's all the other combinations that give us fits
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-22 22:43
David Pino, in discussing Clarinet fingering systems, reminds us that good players using simple fingering systems (such as a bare-bones Iwan Müller Clarinet) *can* sound as if they have facility equal to that of players using much more complex instruments. It's all in the technique. This is in opposition to the "Your photographs are so grand, you must have a wonderful camera" school of thought. You may recall that neither Michelangelo Buonarotti nor Vincent van Gogh painted with acrylics on Masonite, yet they did pretty well....
But I do believe I overstated my position. In performing the tremolo in question, I would undoubtedly use the scheme I described above. A major reason is that I could play it that way much better than any other way I can imagine. However, in coming out, I would definitely consider a change in the final note of the tremolo, depending upon the note to which exit is required. Same goes for the front end. For example, if the A to C tremolo went to a fourth-line D, I would do a throat-tone tremolo *but end it on a Clarion C*. In this way, despite the possibility of a minor clobber (technical term) within the tremolo, the exit from the tremolo to the next note would be very smooth. This is more important than what may go on within the tremolo itself. So, if there is to be any "rough" finger motion at all, I'd rather hide it a bit within the continuing action of a tremolo rather than upon playing the first note of a new phrase, let's say. Hence, you see, this does agree with GBK's new comment: "...we are always striving to choose the appropriate fingering in the context of the notes which preceed and exit the trill."
Your audience will perceive certain sounds as more prominent than others. Understand what those sounds are, and avoid compromising them. For that matter, as the register-key-only A will sound a bit muffled on almost any Clarinet, it may be better to avoid that fingering if the A (rather than the C) is the more predominant tone in the melodic line. So, if I may rephrase and simplify GBK's words a bit, giving them an even broader scope, "It all depends."
Wouldn't you love to own a camera just like the one Ansel Adams used?
Regards,
John
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-23 16:12
JMcAulay and I have written too much on this thread, so it is time to summarize:
1. Develop basic technique with standard fingerings - as they are the building blocks of all clarinet skills
2. Have a working "arsenal" of alternate fingerings.
3. The choice of a given fingering largely depends on the notes that come before and after the passage.
4. Do not sacrifice tuning just to use an alternate fingering
5. Experiment - try non standard combinations. Not every alternate is listed in every text.
6. Move as few fingers as possible - save your energy.
7. When in doubt, email JMcAulay (address found above)...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-09-23 17:07
There's a unique A/B trill fingering, discovered by, I think, Phillip Rehfeldt: Play middle B, open the throat A key (without uncovering the left index finger hole) and trill with your right index finger. The B is not affected by the open A key, and lifting the finger then forces you down into the chalumeau. The open register key compensates for all the fingers down, producing a dull but in tune A. It's not a great fingering, because the principal note, A, is dulller than the auxiliary note, B, but it's a smooth trill.
It may be possible to play the low clarion C with the throat A key open. I haven't tried it for several years (and I don't have my clarinet with me). As I recall, both the C and A are weak, but they may balance. You may have to experiment with lifting different finger, too. I'll try it when I get home tonight, unless someone posts first.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-23 18:11
Ken...Just when you think there are no more possibilities, a new one appears.
Thanks for sharing that fingering. It has been added to my own personal file...GBK
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Author: Ken
Date: 2002-09-25 04:05
Another alternate not yet suggested is---->depress throat Ab/G# key, + left thumb register key (open thumb hole) + (vent A natural) cover left middle and left ring fingers over upper joint D ring key and C hole---->add right side lower joint cluster, Eb/D# pinkie key---->maintain fingering(s) "then" negotiate the side C tremolo/trill using uppermost right two side keys.
The general pitch characteristics on this one are a stuffy/sharp throat A natural and stuffy and flat side C. The applied vent keys + lower right Eb/D# pinkie help notes speak and tune up slightly but still cloudy...not a lot you can do with it). One nice thing about it is saved energy, less extraneous movement and not having to synchronize the left thumb with the right side keys in the other throat fingering. v/r KEN
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Author: Robert
Date: 2002-09-26 18:10
I was messing around and just found another fingering for this:
Finger a low F and then bring the RH thumb around to put down the 3rd side trill key (the one you use to play side B-flat throat) This will produce a C (you don't need the register key, because the side key makes the instrument overblow). You now trill using your LH thumb and first finger.
Well, it works on my clarinet...
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