 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-09-17 23:20
Anyone know anything about 'em? I've got one in my apartment now, but am not sure whether to purchase it. Actually, I don't even know how much the guy wants for it. I've gotten it sort-of third hand. I tried to play it today, but none of my mp's fit the barrel. The mp it has had 4-6 gouges on the inside, and it doesn't play very well. It plays ok with this mp...all things considered.
Can anyone tell me anything more about Keilwerth Alberts? I've gone to the Keilwerth site and searched around a bit here and haven't found anything relating to the Alberts. Anyone have an idea of what a fair price would be? (It does need some adjustment, etc.)
Katrina
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-18 00:01
Hi, Kat
Is the Keilwerth name on the body of the instrument or just the bell? Would your MPs fit if the cork were bigger/smaller? That would concern me. Your m/p won't work and the one that does, doesn't work very well : Not being able to toot the thing is always risky for without that info it would be difficult, to say the least, to establish a value.
- ron b -
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-09-18 02:39
Hi Ron,
The Keilwerth name is on both joints. No name on the bell or on the barrel. None of my mps fits. The closest is my Gigliotti which will almost go in, but not quite. The shanks on all my Vandorens and on my Borbeck are too big. The Gigliotti is "less too big," if that makes any sense.
I just had a thought and tried my R13 barrel and my Click barrel on the upper joint. They fit, but the barrel with the horn is so short I'm not sure what will happen intonationally. (It's too late now to be making funny sounds on a horn in my apt. building, but I'll try tomorrow...)
The barrel looks to be about 2 mm shorter than my Click when in its smallest (61 mm.) position. Does anyone know if this just makes it a 442 instrument? Or is it HP??? I wouldn't expect that, given the time frame of the company posted on its website. There are no indications on the horn other than the Richard Keilwerth name...oh and the serial number which is 22466.
It also has an alternate (L. H.) Ab/Eb key and a strange little key that is pressed down when throat A is played...
Any other suggestions?
Katrina
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 03:15
There are now two Keilwerth companies. One is Julius Keilwerth, the saxophone builder, which I recall is now owned by Boosey and Hawkes. The other is Richard Keilwerth, the Clarinet maker. If the instrument is marked with neither Richard nor Julius, it was likely produced by their father's company in Grasliz (aka Graslitz), Germany. This company had a reputation for building very good instruments. All of the Keilwerths involved in company management moved into the area that would remain Germany after WWII, when Grasliz was turned over to the Czechs and became known as Kraslice. Only Amati instruments are now made in Kraslice.
If what you have is truly an "Albert" instrument (15keys/4 rings), and is labeled only "Keilwerth," it was almost certainly made in Grasliz. If it has more keys or rings than that, it is not an Albert but rather a "Deutsches Normal" (up to 22/6) or an Oehler-system Clarinet (rather like a Deutsches Normal piece, but with up to 34/7). Many if not most of these still extant were made by Richard Keilwerth. I own a Richard Keilwerth "Top Sound" 22/6 Clarinet, and it is an excellent piece. (It seems to be much better designed than the Richard Keilwerth expanded (but not full) Boehm which I also have -- I recall that one is a Model 10.)
The German-style instruments have mouthpieces which are quite different from those which we usually encounter in the US. And they are not interchangeable, as you have found. In fact, a more narrow reed (which has other, less obvious differences) should be used. The Vandoren "Black Master" or "White Master" reeds are the ones I use with such instruments.
Now, having written all of that, I will mention that I have no idea as to the specific vaue of your instrument. Based on my unscientific casual observations Albert-style Clarinets in excellent condition usually go on eBay for no more than $200 or so, unless an exceptional instrument shows up. One in poor condition will not even command $50. A Deutsches Normal Clarinet in excellent shape will fetch perhaps $200 or more. I've not seen any Oehler-system instrument meet the reserve price, which I have never seen less than $1000.
Good luck on your decision.
Regards,
John
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Author: werner
Date: 2002-09-18 03:21
my shortest german system barrel (an old
Willy Keylwerth barrel) has only 58 mm.
And this 50 year old Keylwerth clarinet
is a 442 instrument
(out of tune, beautiful sound).
I'm not sure what a Albert system Keilwerth is.
But here are some Keilwerth pictures:
http://www.sander-saxophon.de/klarinette.htm
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 03:39
Kat: Your last posting was made while I was still composing mine. As it is labeled "Richard Keilwerth," and given your later description of details, what you have is a Deutsches Normal instrument, not really an Albert. Your "strange little key" that is pressed down with the throat A key is a pad which covers a small tone hole just above the L1 finger hole, and is attached to the L1 ring, if there is one. And do check closely: you will likely find that the extra left pinky key is for A#, not Ab. How many rings does your instrument have? Establishing the number of keys can be a daunting proposition, because of the different definitions some have for "key." By the way, my Richard Keilwerth 22/6 bears what appears to be S/N 47645.
Regards,
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-18 03:49
Thank you for the wonderful references, Werner
Schreiber, model 2616 looks like what is usually referred to as an Albert in the U.S.
The three (Deutches system) Uebels are (what I would consider) Oehler systems, especially the 23-key model.
________________________________________________________________
I guess now, Katrina, the next important question to keep in mind is whether it's high pitch or regular... and a price, if it passes that test. How's the mechanism? Any noticable wobble, loosness of keys - do all the springs seem to function okay? Is the body wood or composition and how does it appear? You'll likely want to repad it if you buy it, but are they good enough to get some notes out?
- ron b -
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 05:04
ron b: Good suggestions/questions. I do believe that *Richard* Keilwerth never made a Clarinet in High Pitch. Those pretty much went away in the 1920s, long before Richard built instruments bearing his name.
Regards,
John
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-09-18 12:22
Hi McAulay
I too have a Richard Keilwerth Top Sound clarinet, s/n 74299, about 2 years old, this instrument appears to be rather high pitch, about A=444 I think. This is not a high pitch instrument but I think the pitch is designed for the German market. Yes indeed up to now I still don't really know the number of keys my instrument has. What is the pitch of your instrument?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 14:48
Hey, Ken: Curiously, I never yet have played it in ensemble, so I haven't really cared. Later today I'll fire it up and look at it on the Korg tuner. The old HP stuff put the pitch way high, almost a semitone up from A=440, far higher than A=444. I'll let you know what I find. The instrument does have a very sweet tone, richer in high overtones than most Boehms. Keilwerth says the Top Sound has 22/6 (just barely not qualifying as an Oehler). If they hadn't published that, I never would know. heheheh
Regards,
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-18 17:15
Thanks for the info, JohnM. I've seen many Keilwerth saxes but never a K--- clarinet. Since the instruments came on the scene after the '20s (I didn't know that:), it's almost 100% certain they're standard pitch - or nearly so. If Katrina can find a decent mouthpiece for it, it might be a nice horn after all ...hope so.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-09-18 19:04
Actually, I won't mind if it's 444...I play with accordions all the time and they're tuned soooooo high... 
Any suggestions on mps? I think I'll try it with another barrel today, just to see what it sounds like, even though the intonation will be all screwed up...
It has 4 rings (no thumb ring...). And, even without playing it, I must say that I do believe the extra L.H. pinky key is for Ab. It opens the same hole that the R.H. key opens. In terms of how _I_ count keys, it seems to have 14. I don't know how those Germans count them though!
Also, the bell and barrel do not appear to me to be original to the clarinet, but it's hard to tell. Both are very shiny, but still appear to be wood. It's almost as if they were lacquered (somewhat sloppily) or something. The lower joint has some of that shine, but not as much.
I'll report more later tonight when I've had a chance at it with a different barrel and mp...
Katrina
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-18 19:34
Well, Katrina, if they count their clarinet keys like they tell you to come back next week... it's anybody's guess :]]]
It's not uncommon (in my experience anyway) for (German)Alberts to have that alternate Ab/Eb and an extension for the C#/G#.
Bell and barrel could be a shellac rubbed finish (?)... but not the body? could be.
Do you have a way to measure the top socket barrel diameter?
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Author: werner
Date: 2002-09-18 19:58
German left hand pinky keys:
There are two of them. An Ab and an A#.
Some clarinets have an Ab, some have an A# (the Top Sound
for example), and some clarinets have both of them.
To count the keys .. well .. a 23 keys Uebel clarinet
has exactly the same keywork as a 24 key Yamaha clarinet ..
makes that sense?
Oehler system or not Oehler system isn't a matter
of how many keys it has. The question is: Has it the
right hand Oehler-mechanism (Oehler Mechanismus) ?
The right hand middle finger plateau key answers
that question.
But Yamaha even sells Oehler clarinets without
Oehler mechanism. That hurts a bit.
Please don't get this wrong: Yamaha makes fine Instruments
in my opinion.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 21:19
werner and ron_b: Thanks for your input. I've not seen a German-system Clarinet with a left-pinky G#/D# key unless it was one of the really complex ones with both that and the A#/E# (yep) key. Also, being aware of instruments called "Oehler" with no plateau on R2, I was unaware of this as a hallmark of the Oehler. And I know that just because I have not seen it doesn't mean it does not exist, and even if I have seen it, that doesn't make it correct or standard.
Kat, if the instrument has the "Patent C# mechanism," this counts as an extra key (although it's really an extra tone hole). So if the instrument has five large pads at the low end of the right joint, that counts as an extra key. The pad depressed by the two Right-joint "spectacle" rings counts as a key, etc. The rest of the arcana regarding key count escapes me, as it surely does somewhere between Uebel and Yamaha (thanks, werner!).
As a stab, Kat, I'd guess your piece to be at least 17/4, maybe 19/4 depending on other things, such as whether there is a little tab on the C#/G# key so it can be operated easily by R1.
Regards,
John
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-18 22:52
Ken: I've wondered if the 59mm (unmarked) barrel on mine is the original, and I now suspect not. It plays well in tune with the Korg set for A=436. Excuse me while I look for the saw.
Regards,
John
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Author: werner
Date: 2002-09-18 23:28
After 1/2 year I had a look at yamaha's homepage again
and guess what:
They dont try to sell clarinets without Oehler mechanism
as Oehler clarinets anymore.
And their 24 key clarinet now has a deep E/F improvement
(and thus one key more than the 23-key Uebel clarinet).
So there are two different yamaha 657-24 clarinets now
runnig around in the wildness:
Some with E/F improvement, some without E/F improvement.
I don't know .. should I feel disgusted or amused ..
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-09-19 02:35
OK...So tonight I noodled around a bit with the short barrel that came with my Selmer Series 10 FB. It's even shorter than the one that is with the Keilwerth. However, the tenons on the Keilwerth are so long that when the Selmer barrel is pushed all the way in, it _looks_ like it's pulled out about 1 mm. Unfortunately, my tuner didn't make it into my bag of stuff so I couldn't check actual pitch.
John, when you say "five large pads at the low end of the right joint," does that include the Eb/Ab pad? If so, this one has 5. If not, there are only the usual 4 suspects.
It does have the little extra fillip (sp?) that enables C#/G# with R1.
All in all, and despite the confusion, it sounds pretty good. After reading all the postings here, I suspect it's a beginner/intermediate German system horn. The wood just doesn't seem to be up to a pro caliber horn. Also, I'm under the impression that the German system pro horns would have more keys...
I just have to decide now how much I'd use it...lol
Katrina
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Author: Willie
Date: 2002-09-19 02:46
For the mouthpiece tenon, you could have one shaved down but I would first chech around your neck of the woods to see if someone has one of those cheap white plastic mouthpieces that came with some of the old metal clarinets. Some had a slightly smaller tennon and may fit. They can had for next to nothing and may work well enough for you to give it a good test. The one I had was a Rene Dumont.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-19 05:26
Kat: The wood could look less than wonderful because of bad care in the past. And yes, the five large pads would include the G#/D# pad. You will notice that there are two pads almost but not qiote latitudinally parallel. One is part of the mechanism which allows the production of F#/C# with the alternative fingering, which is to depress the left pinkie E/B key *without* holding down the F/C key with the right pinkie. This is another "key." And the wee fillip on the C#/G# key is indeed yet another.
Some of the German pro instruments are only 17/4. Some players prefer not having all the alternative keys, just as most professional players who use Boehm instruments do not prefer "full Boehm." And the development of great facility on even a simpler Clarinet is possible. Pino notes that some can perform on simple system Clarinets (Iwan Müller type) quite as well as many players using far more complex instruments.
No matter how lousy the original mouthpiece looks, it may be better than trying to fit a MP intended for a Boehm. But you will need to have a proper reed to go with the German-style MP.
Regards,
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-09-19 07:43
If you can measure the barrel's mpc socket we'll know how much a regular mpc might need to be turned down to fit. Shouldn't be any problem at all.
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