 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-09-12 11:20
I was discussing this with another clarinet player (with a freakishly good technique) at college today. He was talking to me about slow practice that actually has a purpose, and that which doesn't do anything to help. He kept asking me questions like "what is the point of slow practice?" and I kept saying stuff like "to become more familiar with the notes" or "evenness of finger movement" etc...and he kept saying "no, think more basic." Anyway, the answer was rhythm (duh!), and it brought up the point that I have a good sense of rhythm in my head, but when it comes to putting it to practice, there isn't as good a sense of rhythm in my fingers. I do slow practice, probably not enough of it, but I'm sure it helps a little bit... but what should I be doing with those sections of pieces which cause me trouble. Mainly very fast rhythmic passages which I tend to rush and lose all sense of rhythm once I turn the metronome off. He also spoke about subdivision, and told me I should try subdividing EVERYTHING I play, even slow warm ups.
Any opinions?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-12 12:44
Sounds like you got some good advice so far.
Indeed, the 'trick' is to be able to translate good rhythm into good rhythmic playing.
When the brain is presented with technically complicated music, more brainpower is shifted to solving those technical problems. One's 'mental metronome' can easily be 'drowned out.'
Your job is to make sure that NEVER happens.
Subdividing 100% of the time while playing is only a start to this process. Only subdividing during easy passages will allow you to continue doing it during the most difficult ones. In addition, it will keep you from getting careless during easy passages (which happens a lot among mediocre musicians).
Slow practicing is ideal, but must necessarily be accompanied by full intellectual participation and concentration.
There are also more efficient ways of using a metronome which will help, but I don't give away all my secrets for free. . .
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-12 12:46
I am totally in accord as a teacher and try with great difficulty to stress the importance of playing long sustained notes. In alot of the slow music in clarinet repetoire musch of the effect of control over the instrument has alot to do with held note practice. If you go to the Brahms Trio slow movement for example, you will see alot of held sustained phrases which have to be driven by a very rythmic yet flexible understanding of held and sustained phrases.
In orchestra you will be surprised also by how slow some of the music is, so therefore slow practice is also a tool in develepment of streagnth and control. This also means playing even the slowest possble music with great rythmic feeling....
Take a scherzo from say Beethoven 7 and practice this very slowly, eventually when it comes time to bring it up to tempo, much of the breathing and nuance of tapering phrases will make alot of sense. On top of this a really good staccattto at a very slow tempi with the right weight to the tone will go miles in illustrating deficits in technique!
All the Best
D Dow
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-12 15:48
We've been over this before, but I want to say that nothing I wrote has anything to do with long tones. I don't use them, don't teach them and don't recommend them.
However, the IDEA of sustaining a single long tone to improve steadiness of sound in moving passages is important. But this has nothing again to do with the rhythmic ideas I presented before
David Hattner
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Author: TDC
Date: 2002-09-12 21:20
Probably the most important reason for slow practice is that it will solve all your problems. When you teach your subconscious mind wrong articulation, meter, rhythm, fingerings, etc. (i.e. mistakes) it learns them just as readily as correct ones. It doesn't discriminate like your conscious mind does. And if those wrong things are learned FIRST . . . 'Nuff said?
TDC
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Author: Todd Wees
Date: 2002-09-12 23:55
David Hattner --
I enjoy chewing on your posts as they are well-thought-out opinions backed by your extensive playing experience.
Just so I'm sure I understand what you mean by subdividing during practice or performance, can you give an example or two?
Todd W.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-09-13 00:52
I remember playing bass clarinet in Daphnis and Chloe once - the only way I got through the "over the break" horror stretch was by playing it really slowly (with a metronome) and gradually picking the tempo up until I got a triffle faster than the speed required. It worked for me and I had memorized the passage without realising it and could "turn it on".
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-13 02:51
Subdividing is turning on a mental metronome that 'clicks' on fractions of beats.
For instance, let's say you are playing "Bolero" (doesn't matter bflat or eflat in this case). Before you even start the first quarter note, you should be 'clickling' the sixteenth notes inside that beat in your head. That way, when you start actually playing, the 2nd note, which comes after a 1/8 (1/16th for eflat) tie over, will come in its proper place and will lead to the next notes in the proper tempo. The clicking continues throughout the entire solo, as it is easy to jump or extend the many other tie-overs in those solos.
Next, consider the Mendelssohn Scherzo (especially the a#, off the beat solo entrance at the bottom of the first page). During this entire work, you have to 'click' the 1/16 note sixlet subdivisions of the dotted quarter beat. This insures that the entire passage, particularly when 1/8s and 1/16th are mixed together, will be 'in rhythm.' (Jettel especially stresses this point in his Mendelssohn etude. Anyone who learns that thing should find the real Mendelssohn playable)
This is only PART of what is required to play properly in rhythm. The rest deals with what I and some others call 'time.' This relates to the ability to maintain a steady tempo (no rushing when the going gets rough or loud), to return to the correct tempo consistently after ritards and such and also to manage sudden tempo transitions without a hitch.
Fortunately, learning to play in rhythm by consistently subdividing the beat at all times (once you get lazy, mistakes happen) will help your sense of time as well. You have to practice subdividing during the easy stuff so that you can have it function flawlessly on technical passages.
This is when you need it most and this is why those passages are asked on auditions. Can you play and can you play them in a rock steady tempo if necessary and appropriate?
It becomes an issue immediately if you sit down in an ensemble and you are the only one who isn't subdividing 100%.
Sorry to be pedantic. Rhythm is an issue all good musicians take seriously. Some of the poor rhythm that is allowed to take place out there is disgraceful. And that's putting it mildly.
Hattner
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-09-13 05:27
"The rest deals with what I and some others call 'time.' This relates to the ability to maintain a steady tempo (no rushing when the going gets rough or loud), to return to the correct tempo consistently after ritards and such and also to manage sudden tempo transitions without a hitch."
Hat, you've got it there...memorizing tempi is one of the MOST difficult things out there, IMHO...
Katrina
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-13 13:03
I was thinkiing music like Bruckner 8 slow movement where the music is very still requires the control over sound that long tone practice benefits most. Isn't all good playing require a steady full control a prerequisite.
In my next symphony gig, Beethoven 3 the slow movement is quite slow(Funeral March). This is a fine expample of where the quality of sustained notes displays how easydifficult it is for us in terms of execution.
As to tempi, the conductor may require slight variances in tapering of tone and also tempi, these are things the metronome aren't going to give...try listening to recordings in order to get at what I am talking about.
David Dow Symphony New Brunswick
Principal clarinet
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-09-13 13:17
Anyone with fantastic rhythm will tell you that in order to produce the flexibility you describe, you must first be able to play rock steady (as if playing with a metronome). That way your subdivision in rubato will make that rubato sound 'logical.'
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-13 13:19
If you set your metronome at 42 beats per minute and play scales in 32d's and then 64th's on altermate parts of the eighth ---essentially you are taking subdivision to its correct place...then have a colleague play triplets in 32cds to the beat and have them play them while your tring to maintain the steady 64ths, this is quite a fun exercise and good for retention of tempo.
Beethoven 3 recordings I reccommend:
George Szell Cleveland sony CBS
Karajan Berlin 63 DG
Jochum Concertgebouw Philips
Giulini Los Angeles DG(a personal favorite)
A note: the Guilin is a great recording and throughout in this whole work he is quite a bit slower than most here, yet the music maintains a sweep and momentum few succeed at!
Bruckner 8
Knappertsbusch Munich Phil 62 MCA Millenium (bargain disc)
Jochum Berlin DG set of these works.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-13 13:28
In order to keep my job I always go with the conductor and some tend to like a pliant idea of steady...I worked under Eugem Jochum once and man he really moved the tempos around beyond belief!
This is a situation which everthing one is trained doesn't prepare you for.
Another conductor who I have seen at work at Tanglewood is Leonard Bernstein. I was at a concert he gave there in the late 80s of Mahler 2 and I can hostly say his interpretation of this work was for me quite controversial....
Younger players however, really need a metronome and then once they develop they should feel free to play what is marked in the score, ie: meno mosso, tempi di accelerando, etc. These things are really quite subjective in terms of interpretation. My exercise above is really a tough one for it proves whether or not one is rushing if the players don't line up on the beat.
My favorte example of a little interpretive thing is the coda at the end of the Brahms Sonata No 1 in F minor 1st movement. There is a lead in triplet to the theme which everyone ritardando or allargandos and sometimes this too can be overdone! That being said the moment arises when some "liberty " with tempo is good---but one also must have mastered even rythmic playing of course!
Really enjoyed your posts as usual Hat. Anyways its off to Beethoven 3 rehearsal. Have a good morning.
D Dow
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-13 13:36
The Brahms bar is the one just before Sostenuto ed espressivo c b a triplet. Sonato no 1 mvt. 1
It seems just right to slow this a little to prepare for the big song so to speak. If overdone its a bit tacky as well....
No where in this section is it marked to slow down trhe tempi yet traditional interpretations go with a "slight" slower tempo than the beginning "Allegro appasionato".
I use a metronome as well, and reccommend all serious students use them.
the Medelsohn scherzo I have played many times and find it to be quite easy. My teacher Harold Wright did a lovely job on this and I will fondly remember his work in this piece of music. He had that sound!
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Author: d dow
Date: 2002-09-13 13:44
I have seen a number of people who play perfectly in rythmn yet are so unmusical that it makes me wonder why they took up music. this is nowadays quite a problem with schools chuirning them out by the buckets--expressive rythmn is what one conductor I know spoke of when he pondered a spot in the music where the orchestra sounded perfect yet devoid of feeling....
There is also a danger with all these institiutions turning them out that we have a problem
Herman Scherchen described it once as"stupid precision".
The late George Szell has a good quote: " We must learn to think with our hearts, and feel with our brain."
All the best--coffee is gone now!
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Author: Michael Blinn
Date: 2002-09-15 02:36
Most interesting posts, Gentlemen.I had to play a version of the Eroica's Marche Funebre after reading Mr. Dow's comments.I chose a 1939 recording of the NBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Toscanini. No problems with sloppy rhythm in this performance! Next, I shall try Karajan's 1963 recording. What a difference. It's as if Toscanini played it in the classical style, and Karajan in the romantic. With Toscanini, the rhythm drives, with Karajan, he drives!
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