 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-05 16:25
I could be considered a capable, amateur, self-taught clarinettist who has not practiced seriously for at least a year.
As a technician I have received for servicing, from a professional orchestra, a Buffet bass clarinet "RC Prestige", S/N 285**. A recent model, I think, and in good mechanical condition.
When I play it with my Hite mouthpiece, cold, in a 64 degrees F room, with the neck pushed right in, I find the tuning to be immaculate. And this instrument is in a pretty good state of mechanical adjustment.
However this capable, orchestral, professional player, possibly mainly experienced on soprano clarinet, is playing it with the tuning tenon pulled out a whole half inch. Player complains of many tuning problems, including flat throat G/G#/A, very flat throat Bb, very sharp long B, not quite so sharp clarion C/C#/Eb, and muffled quality clarion D to F.
To me, these are expected symptoms of pulling the tuning tenon out far too far, i.e. short tube notes becoming far flatter than long tube notes. If I pull out this far I get the same symptoms, but with the entire instrument under pitch.
a contributing factor to the muffled notes may well be that the tuning slide is pulled out so far that there is a leak at the slot cut in the tenon socket, the slot that enables clamping of the tenon.
I have no idea how this player manages to play the instrument up to pitch with it pulled out so far.
I tried player's mouthpiece - Selmer C* with Vandoren 3 reed. Same - in tune with tuning slide pushed in, and awful with it pulled out.
Player wants modifications to correct the tuning of these notes.
I am reluctant, as an amateur, to tell player that the problem is the player, not the instrument.
I am reluctant to modify this instrument which I find to be as perfect as a clarinet can be (+ or - 2 centimes over entire range.)
Can any experienced bass clarinettist offer help:
1. Is this a tuning problem on Buffets that is not showing up when I play it simply because of my relative lack of experience/practice?
2. What might this player be doing to result in this situation? i.e. How does player get (any!) notes up to pitch with the tuning tenon pulled out so far?
3. How do I break any negative news to the player?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-05 16:44
Correction: I misread the tuner scale. I wrote 2 centimes, when I should have written 5 to 10 - easily lippable in tune.
Also, after a little practice - warming up the instrument? - I need to pull out about 1/8". Tuning is still good, for me.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-09-05 17:11
Gordon,
Walter Grabner just asked a closely-related question on the Klarinet chat group, to which I responded, so to save typing time I'll just reprint my own response here, as I think it might help you a bit with your dilemma:
"Walter,
I've worked on quite a few bass clarinets myself during the last few years, mainly from some "non-Big 4" makers such as Kohlert, Malerne, LaCroix but also a few more common types such as Noblets, and I've encountered exactly the phenomenon you describe, with nearly every instrument! I've found the sharpness of the 'long' B and C to be especially pronounced on the single-register-vent designs (Noblet, Malerne) but also present to a somewhat lesser extent on the double-register vent instruments. My solution has generally been to do the following modifications, to varying extents depending on the severity of the problem and the characteristics of the particular instrument:
a) Line the lower toneholes with cork inserts on their 'upper' sides as you describe, to lower the pitch of the lower clarion notes, while accepting a slight further lowering of pitch of the already flat lower chalumeau notes. This is acceptable because a certain amount of flatness in the very low notes is much harder for the ear to detect than any sharpness in the middle B/C area. I've found it's best to make the middle notes as close to 'in-tune' as possible and live with a certain amount of flatness on the very lowest notes.
b) On quite a few instruments (including my own Kohlert) I've gone beyond merely lining the lower toneholes, to actually 'relocating' them a bit farther down by lining the tops as previously described, and grinding the lower half of the tonehole walls to extend them downward, then re-levelling the seating surface (adding some shimming between the pad and cup to compensate for the loss of height), and actually bending the key arm slightly to re-center the pad over the tonehole. Fairly radical, but effective.
c) On many of the single-register vent basses, limiting the opening height of the register vent can help slightly (and also reduces the very prevalent sharpness of the upper clarion A through C) by putting a cork stop under the register key tail end, so that it just barely opens.
d) Finally, in some cases I've used a longer -than-stock neck to bring the overall pitch level down, then opened up the top sides of the throat toneholes to raise the throat tone pitches back up to where they were --- obviously this has to be done very judiciously, with a great deal of forethought!"
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-09-06 13:06
I forgot to mention the final step:
e)On low-Eb bass clarinets, add about a 1/4"-1/2" extension to the bottom tenon to move the bell (and its associated low-Eb tonehole) farther down, to lower the pitch of the 'long' clarion B.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-09-06 16:18
On my new Buffet Presitege 1194-2, my repairperson (a Buffet specialist) was able to raise the pitch of the E-G throat tones by pad adjustment and undercutting. To lower the "long tube" C and B, I pull the middle joint a bit. They are still slightly sharp, but easily "lippable", while leaving the corresponding low F and E in tune. I also pull my neck joint about a half inch to lower the entire instrument. The result of all these adjustments is a scale with no note more than 2 cents "off" and most, "right on" from the lowest C up three octaves to high C. BTW, Walter has played my instrument and approved.
I also purchased a Selmer C* mouthpiece that Walter Grabner refaced which--IMHO--is the next best thing to "instant bass clarineting" that I know (next to my Buffet Prestige bass). Ease of response in all registers, great tuning, just a "dream" to play on. Walter Grabner mouthpieces, as well as his resortation and repair services--Highly recommended!!!!!! And, he is accessable, plays great, as well as being a Sneezy Sponser.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-09-06 20:52
Gordon- i've played this bass quite a few time (in the Auckland Philharmonia, Auckland Chamber orchestra and in chamber situations) and totally agree with it's current player, as do Andrew and James- all experienced players who have had to perform on many other bass clarinets, and find this one to be less ideal.
i'm in a bit of a rush now so don't have time to be more specific- but the throat A is very very flat, when i last used this bass i wondered if maybe someone had filled the hole in with putty or nail varnish.... there are other problems but this one is the most annoying and easily fixed. this one note is very out of tune with the others around it. If the throat A was retuned to more closely match the other notes nearby, the other problems would be eased- at the moment i suspect some lesser intonation problems are amplified by playing with the tuning slide to far IN to compensate for the overly flat A....
i have played this bass next to the Selmer that Peter Scholes owns- Gordon has done a great job of servicing this instrument over the years- and Debbie Rawsons Selmer- and found these intruments much easier to play in tune. Andrews Buffet Prestige has been played "side by side" with the AP bass Gordon describes, and this experience confirmed our opinion that the tuning problems are unique to this instrument, not to all examples of that model/make.
got to run
donald
ps- i use a Selmer C* mouthpiece refaced by Brad Behn, but on this bass described above have also tried Vandoren and Bay mouthpieces to see if they improved the intonation.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-06 22:02
Thanks nzdonald. It is reassuring to have it confirmed by another capable player that the problems are unique to this instrument.
I'm sure you understand my dilemna. It seems reasonable to assume that the likes of a Buffet are made pretty well in tune. And there are times I am asked to 'hack' away at an instrument for tuning purposes when the real problem is the player. But clearly in this case there is agreement that it is the instrument.
It bewilders me that a top instrument can be this far out. Thumbs down to Buffet! I'll proceed to hack some intonation into it, as per instructions. I hope it plays better for you next time you have an opportunity try it. Incidentally there was a significant leak in the tuning tenon!
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Author: Bridget
Date: 2002-09-06 23:32
Hi Donald,
thanks for your support,
cheers,
Bridget
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-07 00:01
I started this thread with the sincere intention of completely understanding a problem with an instrument, and reassurance that a top maker instrument could indeed have significant tuning problems, before making significant modifications to the instrument. In my mind I was focussed on an instrument, and the best way to handle a situation for that instrument. I made an effort not or identify any player. My thoughts at the time were that I, myself was the inadequate player of the instrument, and because of this was unable to appreciate fully the problems of the instrument.
It has been brought to my attention that writing what I was definitely seen by others, to have cast aspersions on a particular player. This was certainly not my intention. I appreciate that this has been done and I sincerely apologise.
I regret any harm that has been done, and undertake to take a lot more care in future in the manner in which I seek expertise in the web.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-09-07 04:23
kia ora all
me still in a rush- hey Gordon, i hope it didn't sound like i was trying to "dis" you, as i have always been impressed with your work and knowledge. The situation here is that you wanted to use the board for knowledge that isn't available to you here in nz ie expert advice on the tricky subject of "fine tuning" a bass clarinet.... David Speigelthal is a bit of a wizzo here from all accounts, and has written some useful stuff, but if you could actually be in the same room as him for 15 minutes you two could probably get that bass really cookin'- it would be much much easier for him to show you how/what to do than write about it....
now, this is what the board is suposed to be used for, right? so sorry if it sounds like we are on your case! it's often quite difficult to get very precise knowledge on the bb, so i think it's great that DS wrote such a descriptive and detailed reply.
i'm sure that you've already pulled the A key off to see if the hole was in any way blocked etc... the next move? drill a bigger hole!
(just joking)(although, if you're going to change the size of any holes, first read Lee Gibson articles in "the Clarinet", plus the relevant bits of his book, plus seek advice from DS and hunt down the old articles in "the Clarinet" by Clarke Forbes- these have tuning charts that will give you an idea of what it considered acceptable tuning and i think have some good technical advice... if you want me to hunt down the info in "the Clarinet", i'll be at the Auckland uni library sometime this week so could copy the relevant articles)
meanwhile, i've got to run off
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-07 11:07
Thanks, Dave, for what you wrote. It was along those lines that I had in mind if I did make modifications. Some requested improvements have now been made.
nzdonald, it was my original post that caused the off-site chain reaction and backlash, and as far as I know, nothing to do with what you wrote. I do have have significant info on procedures but yes, I would appreciate the library info if it is not too much trouble to dig it out. Thanks.
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