 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2002-09-05 14:47
Tal Farlow felt that the IImin and the V7 chord sound the same and serve the same function. Do others agree? How would one solo differently when substituting one or the other of these chords?
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Author: William
Date: 2002-09-05 15:17
They are not the same chords, have different sounds, but are the foundation for the very common chord progression: II7, V7b9 I7maj. The V7b9 may also be V7b5b9 which may also be called a "neopolitan" 7th with a b5 in the base. How to solo???--play it "by ear." When I solo, I don't even think about "what chord", I just play what I hear without the lead sheet.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-09-05 20:42
>Do others agree?<
No, I don't agree! And since when 7th chord and minor chord sound the same? Give me a break.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-09-05 23:49
For starters - IImin is incorrect (sort of) because II in a major IS a minor chord. Unless the key happens to be in the minor.
It's kind of fluffly and inconsequential in "conventional" harmony but perfectly acceptable so long as you use it in it's first inversion - otherwise the bass line tends to slide into the resultion which is "unsatisfactory" in my judgement.
WJK - if you are studying "traditional" harmony and want a substitute chord to the progression "V7 - I" then I suggest you get hold of some Bach chorale harmonisations and study them.
If your useage is not "traditional" then use whatever you feel like as there are no rules.
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Author: Jeff Forman
Date: 2002-09-06 00:44
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the reason they have a similar sound is that they differ only in one of the notes. At least when I play them on the banjo, in the key of G, an Am is A-C-E and a D7 is A-C-F#. So this enables you to walk from the D7 to the Am or vise versa when you have a couple of bars that resolve back to the root chord.
Jeff
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-06 03:30
Diz is correct on a few points.
In a major scale, the triad built on the second scale degree <b>is</b> minor, and the theory notation would simply be "ii".
The notation "IImin" is neither correct, or clear.
As any music major will attest to, the study of the Bach chorales is imperative in learning about chord progressions, cadences and voice leading. Nothing better has ever been written...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-06 07:18
My 2¢ worth and a question: First, I have never before seen "IImin" in any system. That, of course, doesn't mean it may not exist in some notation scheme used by somebody somewhere. But while I agree with gbk that "ii" is appropriate in theory notation, "II" in figured bass would denote a second degree uninverted triad, which is by its nature minor. And as it is uninverted, the conflicting schemes of writing inversions in figured bass don't matter. So, ignoring inversions, figured bass would show (as an example) I-II-IV-V-I, while theory notation would show I-ii-IV-V-I. And without any other clue as to the system of notation being used, I will *always* presume figured bass rather than theory notation if I see I-II-IV-V-I. To me, it seems logical to do so, but maybe that's because my first theory teacher (who was excellent) generally used figured bass. Someone else wouldn't see it that way? I almost feel like asking for a vote.
Now the big question: Does all of that make sense? I'm really not trying to confuse anyone, least of all myself. Forty-eight years since studying this stuff has been quite a while, and it's not exactly the sole topic of interest here in Sunny California, you may have heard.
In response to wjk's query, lets put it in C major and speak of d and G7. In traditional harmony, the two chords are quite different and have different uses. And it's hard for me to understand that anyone, especially a fine guitarist, would think they sound alike. G7 (spelled GBDF) resolves to the tonic triad, C (CEG). The d triad (DFA) need not and in fact usually does not head that way. On the other hand, the diminished triad on the seventh degree of the scale (bdim, spelled BDF) does also resolve to CEG. Note that bdim and G7 are the same, except bdim does not include the dominant note of the scale (G). But the chord still resolves to CEG. The "need" for resolution to the tonic rests in the leading note, seventh degree (B, in the key of C major), so called because it "leads" to the tonic note. So, in C major, just about any chord with a B in it will "want to" resolve to the tonic chord (although it may, of course, head somewhere else entirely). This includes the third degree e triad, (spelled EGB). This chord is more similar to G7 than is the d chord, even though the d and e chords both share two notes with the G7 chord, because the e chord includes both the dominant note (G) -- which usualy remains unchanged from chord to chord in a progression which moves to the tonic -- and the leading note (B). Hence a progression from an e triad to C triad is much more likely than from a d triad to a C triad. And even if the e triad does not resolve to a C triad, the note B will still most usually lead to the note C. Wow, that's long. I hope it's clear enough. Anyway, I cast my vote against Farlow's concept. Gee, isn't it strange, Tal can be so wrong and still play good jazz guitar? Remember that. One does not have to be "right" to sound good.
When you are improvising, your playing will either sound good or it won't. If it doesn't, fix that and do it again. Don't be a slave to the harmonic chord structure. Farlow obviously isn't. Even if you throw in something that is discordant with the harmony, just let it sit there and wait for the harmony to catch up to it. Listeners may acclaim you as a master of long suspension. And that's not even half a joke.
Speaking of joke, there was in the late fifties a story making the rounds of a couple of audience members leaving a club, speaking of a saxophonist they had heard: "Man, what a sax player! That guy went on for better than five minutes and never once played 'How High the Moon'!" It may not make much sense nowadays, but it sure did then.
Regards,
John
who evidently qualifies as "any music major," attesting to Bach chorales as required study for a good music theory foundation
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-06 08:28
JMcAulay's theory description of the voices in the movement of the chord progression ii - V7 - (I) is a good one. The principles he clearly describes are fundamental voice leading rules.
All you kids out there, take notes....
He is correct in the fact that the notation "II" is used in figured bass, however in the course of jazz/chord symbols the notation "ii" (for the triad on the second scale degree) is more apt to be encountered.
Always remember my 2 rules when improvising:
If you encounter a jazz tune you've never heard, and must improvise: Play "Sweet Sue" - it works for everything.
and finally:
"Wherever you go - there you are"...GBK
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Author: William
Date: 2002-09-06 16:41
Ah yes, GBK, the only two guidelines you need for improv. Cool, groovy, far out, like wow, man!!!
BTW, when I "get lost" in the harmonic wilderness, I always revert to "The Star Spangled Banner" to get a "standing ovation" for dazzeling my audience--one more time--with my polyrhythmic and atonal innovassive stylings. Just kidding, of course, but I do do "White Christmas" over "A Foggy Day" and get away with it (sorry for the do do--I usually try to avoid that!!).
Remember, too, that there are no wrong notes in jazz, just inappropriate choices. My theory is: always play a lot of notes, because even a blind squirrel occassionally finds a nut.
Musical theory--who needs it when we have musical reality.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-09-06 19:00
William said: "...My theory is: always play a lot of notes..."
Actually, my theory is just the opposite - Play very few notes.
The audience will then be so impressed by your superior jazz intellect, they will undoubtedly (always) say:
"It's not what he played, but rather, what he was thinking".
The moral of this true anecdote: a well placed single note is worth more than 99 misplaced ones...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-09-06 19:03
Thanks to GBK for his concurrence, and for his reminder that "Wherever you go - there you are." However, he failed to grant proper attribution for this marvelously expressive phrase, which is to the title character in the little-renowned film "Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension."
And my favorite "insert" has always been (and likely still is) "Begin the Beguine." You can't go wrong with Cole Porter.
If you would learn improvisation, try throwing some hot licks on top of Bach Chorales.
Regards,
John
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