 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: drc
Date: 2002-08-29 21:00
One reads frequently on this list about individuals or even music stores trying out new clarinets and then "sending back" or "rejecting" the ones they don't like. Does anyone have any insight into what happens to these clarinets that are "sent back"? Do other people buy them and find them to be just fine? Is there a pool of rejected clarinets someplace just waiting for someone to buy them?
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Author: Jerry McD
Date: 2002-08-29 21:19
My understanding is that a few outlets (I know IMC and Jeanne for sure) go to Buffet in L.A. and hand pick horns to stock. The flip side to that is that the other horns are 'rejected.' But I think a more accurate description would be that they are not purchased by that retailer. I would suspect that Buffet sends these 'rejected' instruments to other retailers who do a mass purchase order. What happens to these instruments once they reach this retailer depends. some will work on them and some will not. The same rules apply whether your instrument was "pre-selected" or not, try before you buy and one person's cast-off is perfect for someone else. IMC and Jeanne (and anyone else who hand picks their horns) feel they are doing what is best for their business and their customers but it is very difficult for one person who is purchasing one horn to be able to determine what is best.
I can't speak for what companies do with other brands but I would suspect that it is a similar process.
Jerry McD.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-08-30 03:59
This is a problem where ever customers are able to make a selection. I dig past the rejected 2 by 4s at my local Home Depot to find fresh stock to select from. I suppose eventually the unsaleable ones are written off (and reflected in the price charged!) There is a big difference though between a $2.29 piece of wood and a $1500+++ clarinet. I suppose the returned stock goes to those who either are less discriminating, or whose needs the individual unique properties of the previously rejected instrument more nearly fits.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-08-30 07:36
Does anyone seriously believe that Buffet Crampon, Selmer, Leblanc or any of the serious manufacturers knowlingly ship lemons. They all inspect professional clarinets at several stages along the professional line, and they all employ professional clarinetists to test each instrument before it is let out of the factory. It is true that a clarinet tested by one musician will not be the same as one tested by another. But it doesn't mean that any of the clarinets are bad, They are simply different.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-30 11:50
beejay wrote:
>
> Does anyone seriously believe that Buffet Crampon,
> Selmer, Leblanc or any of the serious manufacturers knowlingly
> ship lemons.
Either they do or the people play testing them at final assembly don't know squat about intonation. Some new clarinets, but just about any maker, have intonation problems serious enough to be rejected but aren't.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-08-30 14:10
They send the rejects to a market as far away as possible so they are less likely to be snt back.
That is here in New Zealand.
Is that over-cynical?
And that is why I give them heaps in forums such as these.
If they had better quality control in production then there would be very high consistency, as with the Japanese instruments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-30 15:18
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
>
> If they had better quality control in production then there
> would be very high consistency, as with the Japanese
> instruments.
Japan's got their share of clarinet lemons, too.
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Author: TDC
Date: 2002-08-30 16:00
Years ago, when I bought my new Buffet R-13, I went to 48th and Broadway to a guy named Russianoff (I think),who had an upstairs claruinet store with big windows looking over the intersection, and two or three technicians working at benches.
He would get a shipment, select the best 20 or so, and send them out to Buffet on Long Island, where they would be "tuned up" -with cork pads on the upper end, adjusted, fine tuned, things like that. Then he would allow you to choose among them. Clarinet players from all over the world came there to buy horns. I gave him my old R-13 and four hundred bucks if I remember, for an absolutely fabulous horn, which I still play today. You can't say anything bad about Buffet clarinets to me! At that time, I also had a top-of-the-line LeBlanc, which was the soupiest clarinet I ever blew. I don't know how Buddy DeFranco played one so long. It must have been an exercise in self-discipline.
I'm not sure I'm remembering Russianoff's name correctly. He even wrote a "Method" clarinet book, which I still have someplace. A great guy, a great store, both gone now.
Tom D.C.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-30 16:27
"...a guy named Russianoff (I think),who had an upstairs claruinet store..."
-and one day in 1939, a 10 year old kid named Stanley Drucker walked in for lessons...GBK
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Author: TDC
Date: 2002-08-30 16:39
Okay, GBK! Out with it. What's the story? Do you know this to be true? TDC
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-30 16:48
Absolutely true...
In the words of Casey Stengel: "You can look it up" ...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-30 17:12
GBK wrote:
>
> "...a guy named Russianoff (I think),who had an upstairs
> claruinet store..."
>
> -and one day in 1939, a 10 year old kid named Stanley Drucker
> walked in for lessons...GBK
Then a young Charlie Neidich walked in ...
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Author: Rick
Date: 2002-08-30 17:29
I studied with Leon Russianoff for a couple of summers during college, and have to say that he was the most intense, wonderful teacher that a person could have. I was sad to hear of his passing a couple of years ago. I remember walking in to his studio and hearing the principle clarinetist from the Utah Symphony (I don't recall his name) taking a lesson. When I asked Leon why this gentleman needed lessons, he replied by saying that he came in occassionally to brush up on his skills.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-08-30 18:38
Message to Mark,
I tried nine RCs when I bought my A last year. I liked some more than others, but the intonation on all of them were perfect. Are you trying to tell me that people like Michel Arrignon don't know a bum note when they hear one?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-30 20:01
beejay wrote:
>
> Are you trying to tell me that people like Michel
> Arrignon don't know a bum note when they hear one?
No, unless he's <b>the</b> final tester for every Buffet produced. There's plenty of Buffets out there with bad intonation problems - which is one of the reasons people have had to pick through them.
I hear things are better now, but even now there are occasionally "dogs" out there when it comes to intonation (way outside the normal variance). Why are <b>any</b> of these released from the factory? They should either be fixed or ground into dust for a Greenline.
I've played (before Francois Kloc was here, to be sure) some Buffets where even to me the spring balances were horribly uneven, from one of the places that supposedly goes through and "hand-picks" the instruments no less. That's something that's easily fixed before it gets into a customer's hand by the factory, and you'd think that someone who "hand-picked" the instrument would at least get the springs in a generally balanced condition. There's no reason for gross problems like that.
I'm not singling Buffet out, either. They're not alone.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-08-31 03:08
Of course, it may have perfect intonation when it leaves the factory and then change slightly due to humidity, etc.
And note that some clarinets play differently depending on how the barrel and bell are rotated. Two different people may come to very different conclusions simply because they put the horn together differently.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-31 03:27
jim lande wrote:
>
> Of course, it may have perfect intonation when it leaves
> the factory and then change slightly due to humidity, etc.
Jim,
Slightly off is fine; the clarinet is a compromise.
30 or 40 cents at either or both ends is unreasonable. There's a number out there that can't be fixed without major surgery.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-08-31 12:29
Yes, there are clarinets out there with major intonation problems.
There are far more clarinet players with major intonation problems.
As for spring tensions, etc. Buffet quality control in that respect is a million times better than it was when I was in school. You could barely tell what a clarinet might play like when you tried it out because the mechanics were so out of whack.
Rejected clarinets eventually get sold to someone. Usually some poor student somewhere. Same with rejected mouthpieces, barrels and everything else.
The Buffet company makes far too many clarinets for one tester to try them all. Sure, some dogs get through. The amazing thing is that a mass produced product requiring such fine measurement tolerances can be as consistent as it is (at a very low price).
The comments above can be applied to every other major producer of clarinets. . .some more than others. From what I can tell, Buffet is doing better than most and selling cheaper.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-31 16:08
HAT wrote:
>
> The amazing thing
> is that a mass produced product requiring such fine measurement
> tolerances can be as consistent as it is (at a very low price).
Actually, HAT, I work for an automotive company. It amazes me that 10s if not 100s of millions of engines, each with hundreds of moving parts requiring tolerances as close as if not closer than those required by a clarinet, working in extremes of temperatures and pressures, get produced every year. And each and every car gets inspected multiple times along the way, and those cars that at any step are out of spec get fixed.
There are still "dogs" that make it through, but far fewer in percentages than those of clarinet manufacturers. The clarinet makers have far to go in the realm of quality control.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-08-31 17:12
Mark, you can't seriously compare cars and clarinets.
When the tolernaces are deep into the decimal range, even the most fastidious hand made instruments will come out far different from each other.
Besides, I would MUCH rather pay $1800 or so for a clarinet that is 90% finished and pay to have it completed to MY specifications than pay the astronomical amount that every other woodwind player has to pay for his/her instrument. Have you seen prices for handmade flutes, oboes, not to mention any bassoon?
David Hattner
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-31 17:34
HAT wrote:
>
> Mark, you can't seriously compare cars and clarinets.
Buffet makes near 20,000/yr. I expect reasonable quality control on that quantity.
> When the tolernaces are deep into the decimal range, even the
> most fastidious hand made instruments will come out far
> different from each other.
But they're not all that "hand-made". They use jigs & fixtures, mass production techniques and more or less <b>attempt</b> some modicum of quality control. What they don't do is totally reject those that miss the mark by some substantial amount.
BTW - I am <b>not</b> singling out Buffet. It's just that they currently make the greatest number of professional-level clarinets and therefore are the most visible.
> Besides, I would MUCH rather pay $1800 or so for a clarinet
> that is 90% finished and pay to have it completed to MY
> specifications than pay the astronomical amount that every
> other woodwind player has to pay for his/her instrument. Have
> you seen prices for handmade flutes, oboes, not to mention any
> bassoon?
I'm not stupid - I have eyes and can read. personally, I'd rather pay $1800 for an instrument that was decently finished and tuned and if I decided to pay another 4 or 5 hundred to bring it to perfection - give me the option, not the necessity. It's akin (using an automotive analogy again) the difference between using a perfectly stock engine and a blueprinted one. The afficionado will pay the extra to make it perfect, but the average user has no need and can run perfectly well on that stock motor - tquality control pretty much assures that the motor will be acceptable to the vast majority. That's not true with our mass
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-08-31 20:06
That was my point, they aren't hand made, thus, they're doing awfully well.
Could it be better? On that you're right, yes they could.
But since every mouthpiece and barrel is different, I think it's better the way it is.
And since they sell tons of clarinets, apparently most buyers can't tell the difference, either.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-31 20:19
HAT wrote:
>
> And since they sell tons of clarinets, apparently most buyers
> can't tell the difference, either.
That's my point. The junk goes to those who unfortunately don't know better, and there shouldn't <b>be</b> any junk on the market at the price level we're talking about.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-08-31 22:02
I can agree with that as well. But would I like to have to pay what flute players pay so that some poor schlub who isn't good enough to appreciate the difference won't be ripped off?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-09-01 12:26
If sewing machines had the significant poor quality control that clarinet and sax players put up with they probably would not sew.
Almost every item in our mechanically advanced environment has more accuracy for one's dollar that a clarinet does, and in most cases no hand making is necessary to achieve this.
A clarinet with poorly-seating pads is like a car with wobbling wheels, leaking brake cylinders, steering wheel slack, etc. Even considering where some hand attention is required, poorly seated pads should be as uncommon as unbalanced tyres on a new car.
And 'hand making' is now almost never necessary in order to make something to very high precision, and cheaply. Consider a simple Bic ballpoint, a Bic lighter, a computer printer, a quartz analogue watch. Large numbers of parts with precision way ahead of woodwind instruments.
20,000/year clarinets is sufficient to invest in the infrastructure for high accuracy without high product prices.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-09-01 14:43
So... lets put some spin on this, what ARE the numbers?
What are the criteria for acceptance testing?
If the output is 20k units, how many are marginal? How many are actual rejects? I've been through this fitting process with a couple of the NYC 'Big Dogs' trying on older horns.... they measured within 7 cents on any note, had even intonation and little spread between 12the (within 12 cents).
At less than $1000, they were (all three) rejected.
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Around here, the Band kids will buy a piece of garden hose it it has the Buffet logo.
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