 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dave dow
Date: 2002-08-26 13:01
I think the best orchestra in the world is Statkapelle Dresden. I heard them a few years ago and recently found a recording of Struass's Ein Heldenleben with them. The sound of this group is truly amazing. Apparently the orchestra age is on average around 35 which should prove one doesn't have to be older to play wonderfully. I rank this group up there with the top 10 in the world at the moment eaqsily...anyone out there agree?
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-08-26 13:38
Rankings -- or standings -- are just fine when speaking of something pretty much objective, such as won-loss records.
However, it's pretty silly to start ranking all that is subjective, especially that of "greatest orchestra," "best recording," "most consistent reed," "shiniest ligature" or "coolest restaurant in a metropolitan area between 25,000 & 100,000 with tall waitresses that have the most imaginatively painted toenails."
And especially judging orchestras by recordings is frought with flaws. Unless those recordings are of a live performance (or completely uncut and unedited studio job), you're really rating the recording company, the producer and the engineer as much as the orchestra.
You really want to rate an orchestra? Hear them play a concert - in person -- in their own hall.
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Author: dave dow
Date: 2002-08-26 14:11
The live concert I atrtended was in 98 and it was Brahms 4th and this was flawless and incredibly musical. Sinopoli was conducting. The other side of the program was Schoenberg PELLEAS et MELLISANDE (not easy stuff) and they made light fair of it. As for me I work professionally and as( Clarinet player) thought the balances were far better than any orchestra I have heard in concert in the last 15 years. I also believe the recent live recording of Bruckner 5 with Sinopli is on DG ---and is a totally unbelievable musical journey. The orchestra again is wonderful. A colleague of mine in the Montreal symphony feels the same way....just thought you might like to heAR SOMETHING EXCELLENT over some of the crap flooding the market as of late. Sincerely, a music lover and player D Dow
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Author: Werner Rheinhardt
Date: 2002-08-26 14:17
Dear Mr. Dow: I play clarinet as an ametuer and come from Basle Switzerland originally. Although most don't know it, this orchestra is a true jewel and an example of how hype and media can cover up what is a good thing..However, DG as a label has gone to great trouble to record and produce recordings of this group for a reason. Very few groups today can play the Bruckner "style" and they are only among a handful that produce such a deep rich sound. I have always admired their string section over groups like the New York Phil and Boston. Best Wishes, Werner
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-08-26 15:29
David,
Is the Philadelphia Orchestra as great as it was under Ormandy? The Cleveland Orchestra as great as it was under Szell? The New York Philharmonic as great as it was under Bernstein? Or even the St. Louis Symphony as great as it was under Slatkin?
Without commenting on whether Statskapelle Dresden is a world-class orchestra, composed of talented, well-trained musicians except to say that I expect it is (though I agree entirely with Larry regarding the futility of ranking orchestras), I would argue that the conductor plays an important role in determining the quality and character of most orchestral performances. Your evaluation of the orchestra is based on one performance and one recording, both with Gino Sinopoli conducting. And, as you probably know, Gino Sinopoli passed away over a year ago.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: david Dow
Date: 2002-08-26 15:52
Following recordings of this orchestra in my collection
Beethoven 7 Karl Bohm
Rudolf Kempe Richard Strauss Entire tone poems this is on EMI and includes all of the tone poems of Richard Struass Check Amazon for buying info
Andre Previn Sibelius violin Concerto with Anne Sophie Mutter Violin on DG
Schubert Symphonies under Karl Bohm
Bruckner Symphonies under Eugen Johchum on EMI all nine
Brahms
Symphonies under Kurt Sanderlin on RCA Navigator series
Dvorak Symphony no 9 under Bohm on Teldec reissue
Electra the opera by Richard Strauss with Sinopoli on DG
Beethoven Fidelio under Masur on Hungarton
Die Meistersinger von Nuremberg Karl Bohm 1954
Bruckner 5 Sinopoli
Manfred Weise Clarinet Concerto of Mozart on Teldec germany
Herbert Blomstedt conduct Beethoven symphonies All of them
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Author: Werner Rheinhardt
Date: 2002-08-26 15:54
Thats a pretty fair list to judge any group by!
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-08-26 16:04
Ahhh...but one person's "crap" might just be a gourmet feast for another, David...unless, of course, we're speaking of marching band music! 
But we all have ears and we all have our personal likes and dislikes (and, for sure, they are bandied about on this BB like every revelation is the second coming of...well, whatever...). I certainly don't disagree with you about the Statskapelle: it's a fantastic ensemble. However, they're hardly the only one that can make music and rub their stomachs at the same time (and, BTW, how do they sound on Debussy....or Barber?).
Frankly, there will be some who read your opinion, David, and run right out and purchase a copy of the Bruckner CD of which you speak (assuming they can actually find a store that sells classical music!) and, upon listening, fall fast asleep. That, right or wrong, might color one's personal opinion of the orchestra.
Also, your ears -- and how you listen and what you like -- are no better qualified or less subjective than the rest of ours (and you're hardly the only working professional on this BB). Balances far better? Maybe some others would choose to disagree -- does that make them wrong?
I say tell us about good performances and why you think they are so...but let's leave the "top ten" nonsense to David Letterman.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-08-26 16:35
Well, if they sounded great under Sinopoli, they must be amazing! Ok, that was mean.
We should all feel for the Dresden Staatsakpelle. Their home is flooded nearly 60 years after we blew up the first one. I have some of those prewar recordings and it was a fantastic orchestra back then. Great tradition.
The Kempe Strauss recordings have long been famous. I had actually never heard any of them until I had to play 'Josephslegende' a few months ago (LL, you recorded this with Jarvi, right?). Fine recordings, now available quite inexpensively.
As for the person who wants to compare the big American Orchestras to their 60s incarnations, it is not fair to do so. You can't compare an orchestra with a 35 week season to one with a 52 week season. Ask anyone who has done both (obviously not me, but I have done my homework here).
Another aside, 'live' recordings on major labels are rarely that. Usually, they are taken from 3-6 different concerts and then a seperate patch session. In fact, the Berlin Phil's recent 'live' "Guerrelider" contains work by a singer who didn't perform in the concert. She was ill or something and was replaced in the concerts, but for the 'live' recording she dubbed in her part from London studios against the orchestra tracks which were recorded at a patch session in Berlin.
The above case is EMI, but DG and London/Decca been the most aggresive in terms of calling edited recordings 'live.'
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-08-26 16:59
BTW, David (Dow, not Hattner)...don't you find it interesting that your comments have been seconded (almost immediately!) from Werner Reinhardt, who apparently uses the same ISP as you! Funny, though -- he doesn't seem to want to leave us his email address...hmmmm....
Actually, the real Werner Reinhart (you should, at least, spell his name correctly!) was a wealthy Swiss industrialist (from Winterthur, not Basel) who was a leading patron of the arts in the first half of the last century. Especially noteworthy (to us, anyway) was that he was an avid amateur clarinetist and was responsible for commissioning several great works of art and literature, many of them compositions for the clarinet, such as the Stravinsky Three Pieces and L'histoire du Soldat, the Honegger Sonatine and the Hindemith Clarinet Quintet. Also important to note is his purchase and preservation of the Mozart sketch of a concerto for basset horn in G, which is known now as the Winterthur Manuscript. This, of ocurse, led to the Concerto, K. 622.
He died in the early 1950's.....but, apparently, his ghost likes to post.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-26 17:27
It also seems that "Werner Reinhardt" (sic) also has been known (on this bulletin board) to have amnesia, as he sometimes calls himself "Dr. Jacob Mathias" and most recently "Dr. Eric Anderson".
I guess all those long tones, makes one forget his own name...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-26 17:47
GBK wrote:
>
> "Dr. Jacob Mathias" and most recently "Dr. Eric
> Anderson".
I actually tried to find Dr. Mathias in the New Brunswick telephone directory a couple of months ago but was unsuccessful.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-26 18:00
Mark wrote: "...I actually tried to find Dr. Mathias in the New Brunswick telephone directory a couple of months ago but was unsuccessful..."
Your honor, I rest my case...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-26 18:18
Actually we have a huge contingent on the BBoard (percentage of population) from St John, New Brunswick:
Werner Rheinhardt
David Dow
Rouben Mamoulian
Anders Malberg (Malaberg)
Raoul Steinberg
Miklos (Milkos) Brabec
Mark Landry
Eduard van der Graf (vanderGraf, van derGraf)
Marcel Benoit
Wilfred Berk
Marius
Roland Berger
Heinz Bloch
Shawn Grant
Serge
Dieter Fornby
Aaron Rubenstein
doodle
Not bad for a metro area of 125,000
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-26 18:27
Mark wrote: " ...GBK (laughing too hard to type)
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-08-26 22:20
The only recording I have of this orchestra is Clemenza di Tito with Karl Boehm. The sound made by the principal clarinet is enough to deter me from trying any more. I suppose it's probably someone new now.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-08-27 04:01
The wonderful German Orhestra is also, appropraitely, known as "the Golden Harp". And for my money, their string sound is superb.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-08-27 08:22
Well.... On the question of the efficacy of the conductor, I quite agree it makes a great deal of difference. I like Kempe a great deal, and I think the Strauss recordings owe much to his vision. Sad he died prematurely (just as it was with Sinopoli).
As to technical perfection, the current orchestra may be, but the 1970s band under Kempe was not. Listen to the amazing toned trumpet in the 1974 account of Alpline Symphony, in the long solo that descends to meet the strings in a quiet unison. Only it is not a unison, because the trumpet is so sharp. To hell with that say I, the music is amazing nonetheless.
The 1970s clarinets sounded good, if you like that kind of sound (and I do), but that does not guarantee they sound good today. I do not think listners should be put off buying the older recordings because of doubts concerning clarinet tone.
The full set of Strauss/Kempe recordings is available for an absurdly low price in a box set. It simply screams "buy me!!", so I did. Not all the works are well recorded by modern standards, but enough is pretty good, and beats most 1980s recording qualities, and some 1990s stuff.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-27 12:30
5 of that list are personal students and colleagues of mine, one is a professor of music at the local university and the other two are forensic patholoigists who work with me in a local concert band on dissecting clarinets....not clarinetists/
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-28 14:51
Most people in Canada don't like leaving E mail adresses because of the junk mail that sometime freinds send with it! as far as the above people with the nb net server they are all people I know except one or two and they are doodle and landry.....whoever..... Mark you should come on up to NB and bring your clarinet...we have alot of American tourists and you might like Saint JOhn...its a bit cooler than some of those frying pan type cities and we make great lobster....most of these people are amateur players and some study with me personally. OUr local band rehearsal is at 7. 30 PM thursday and we have a wide variety of players...even some from Europe!
Yes I do like Dresenden State alot and whats wrong with that! The amount of Cleveland talk is flooded on the board. I seem to like the texture of the trypani and lower strings of this group and know of few groups today that are that exciting...I know cleveland is going through a conductor change and how will that Affect them who knows? so is our symphony here.....if GBK would like should come up too and we could perform a concert or two...anyways I have to practice for the uupcoming concerts...if your in Saint John try fiinding me thr9ugh the Musician's asscociation where I am listed....boy it be nice to hear you folks play....All the Best to you Boarder's D Dow check my new topic above!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-08-28 16:31
David... I can't promise that I will be in your area anytime soon, but will definitely look you up if I do visit. It sounds like a beautiful place to see, and hear great music as well.
Thanks for the invite! ...GBK
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-28 18:08
Other Dresden State orchestra recording of note:
Karl Bohm beethoven's Fidelio with Vickers
Beethoven Piano Concertos Claudio Arrau on Philips Colin davis
Webern Orchestral Music Sinopol on Teldec recordings
Wolgang Sawallisch Shubert Symphonies on Philips
Mozart Symphonies on Denon with Blomstedt
The Flying Dutchman opera Silvio Varviso conducting on Philips
and listen to German radio live broadcasts as well....quite exciting stuff. ...
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-28 18:21
A short note to the above: when Szell died in the early 70s and named Maazel the orchestra really did change a great deal. In fact the orchestral sound was altered so much that gone was the knife edged quality ....I was quite dissapointed in alot of my London Decca Maazel recordings. the orchestra seemed comatose...it wasn't for quite a while that things got better.
When Mehta left New York Phil the players sounded far better...in fact that is one expample of how bad an orchestra can affect playing and morale in spite of the professional spectrum.
Ozawa left Boston in shambles and technically entrances were bad, tuning was haywire and players just no longer responded to his direction. these things happen for a reason....just as much people like Karajan seem able to ignite players. Szell had that same effect on Cleveland....his presence made players play their best and care about every note.
Sinopoli was tough as well, but the results are consistently fine recordings. Excellence is its own reward, and to take a 3rd rate orchestra like this and make it the talk of Europe (let alone the world is not too easy to do.) Conductors of this stature rarely come along....very few people have the
skills to make orchestras play so well.
One can have the most brilliant sounding players and technicial players and have the worst recordings due to the inherent influence conductors have on their musicians. Bruno Walter took a group of rag tag studio players and formed the Columbia Symphony orchestra and in few rehearsals made them play and sound better than they ever did in their entire lives....just listen to some of the rehearsals and they attest to his patience and desire to achieve not only musical unity but also artist phrasing(CBS Sony Beethoven Rehearsals)
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-30 03:09
Try the recording of Bruckner 9 with Jochum on Emi recordings...the sonority of the lower winds and strings is really awe inspiring! I believe it was from 85 or so that it was released.
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