 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark Zmyewski
Date: 2002-08-14 16:40
Hi, everyone.
I am new to this group, so I don't know if this has been covered. I have been playing
with a local opera orchestra for 17 years and, I have to admit, I am finally tired of
transposing all of the parts written for C Clarinet. I have a Bb and an A (Buffet R-13),
but I think it's time for a C clarinet. Since I'm in Huntsville, Alabama and also have limited
time to travel, I will probably have to contact someone like Woodwind Brasswind and
have a couple clarinets sent to me, try them, send them back, then try some more, etc.
My main question is about the Patricola rosewood clarinets. Can anyone tell me how the
rosewood clarinets play/sound? Also, I am not looking for a $5,000 horn. I am not a
professional musician (I am a computer geek by day), so I am mainly looking for something
in the $900 - $1,200 range. (Now that I think about it, if anyone can share their ideas about
the best C clarinet to get in that price range, rosewood or not, I'd appreciate it.)
Thanks,
-Mark Zmyewski
Huntsville, Alabama
markz@hiwaay.net
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2002-08-14 18:27
Patricola C clarinets prices are around $ 2.000.Other professional C clarinets, as Buffet or Leblanc are over $ 3.000. Rosewood produces a sound lighter (brighter?) than granadilla, maybe the Buffet E11 is a very good option for your purposes and budget.
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-08-14 20:53
There are also Leblanc Esprit and Noblet C clarinets...the Noblet should be around the same price as the E11 C.
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Author: Seamus Kirkpatrick
Date: 2002-08-14 22:34
At the risk of being abused the Amati clarinets can be worth checking out and if you buy them from the distributor, very well priced.
I've just bought one of their low G's and while it ain't no Buffet it's good bang for buck.
cheers
Seamus
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Author: RS
Date: 2002-08-15 04:55
My Leblanc Esprit was about 2K--in the same range as the Patricola. It's a very nice horn but I think Leblanc dropped it from their line. The C Patricola has a good reputation.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-08-15 18:45
Check again with IMS. When I last talked to them the "C" clarinets were "backordered". Seems like a lot of old lazy non-transposing geezers like me are interested in them. I think the Amati might be a very good deal (if you ignore the comments of our "total c--- author) Watch e-bay. There was one on it the other day but Walter Grabner beat me out of it. He had more money to spend that day than I did!
;=( . There is one now on "Trocadero" but Its an older Albert system.
Bob A
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-08-16 13:24
Hi Everyone!
I'm also new to this list and I appreciate your comments. I currently have a E11 C clarinet and have been generally happy with it. However, I've wanted to get more information about the Patricola clarinet (Bb or C). I've heard positive comments about the Patricola. But, so far I haven't spoken with anyone who actually plays one. If you play a Patricola could you please tell me what you think of it? In particular, why did you chose it over Bufet, Leblanc, or Selmer?
I'm curious if there has been any discussion about mouthpieces for the C clarinet. For a period of time I used various Bb mouthpieces on my C clarinet. I was not happy with the results. Then, I spoke with Ralph Morgan on the phone about it. He made a special order C clarinet mouthpiece for me. It made a remarkable difference in my sound and intonation. I started with a Morgan RM15 (1.15 mm) mouthpiece. After several months I asked Ralph to open it to 1.28 mm. This would be his RM28 model. I've been entirely happy with this mouthpiece -- superb quality of sound, projection, and intonation. I wholeheartedly recommend the Morgan C clarinet mouthpieces to others.
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Author: steve rosenberg
Date: 2002-08-16 15:52
Hi all!
I'll weigh-in on the Patricola C clarinet issue and share my limited experience. About a month ago or so, I bought a new one in grandilla (sp?)from IMS and am very satisfied with it. My teacher and I auditioned the 3 that were shipped to me. One of the characteristics I experienced about the "Rosewood" clarinet, which, by the way looked stunning (especially with the standard, silver-key finish ), was the over all "stuffy" sound it projected, as well as being out of tune, in spots. The price was about $300 more, as well. The price I paid was for mine was around $1850+ S & H, insurance, etc.
I should point out there are some new (at least to me) "bells and whistles" on these clarinets, which was quite nice, e.g. an auxilliary, left-hand key for the G#/E#, 2 adjustible screws for the "crows'-foot apparatus, which occasionally goes out of allignment, and an extra key to minimize the inherent "stuffiness" of the chalameau Bb. I recommend checking this baby out.
Good luck!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-08-16 20:27
I agree about the Patricola C clarinet. I've owned them and they are great instruments. I recommend the Grenadilla wood model, which I bought for $1,895.00 at IMS.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-08-17 01:56
I have a Patricola oboe, and I'm impressed with the workmanship. They also are eager to please, and they (Patricola Brothers) continue to work to improve their instruments. Ted Jahn owned a Patricola clarinet. You can get them from Muncy winds, and talk to Phil Muncy (the owner) about them for some more insights. I've thought about purchasing one. The rosewoods will be sweeter, lighter, and maybe, brighter. They are more for chamber music, but will be fine at a non-pro level for c parts. I found that if I used my A clarinet for orchestral c parts, that they were easier to transpose...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-17 03:15
Sandra F. H. wrote:
>
> The rosewoods will be sweeter, lighter, and maybe,
> brighter.
Maybe. And maybe not.
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Author: Mike_M
Date: 2002-08-18 16:09
I’ll weigh in on the Patricola opinions too. I actually bought Ted Jahn’s Bb and A Patricola’s a few years ago. I love them. He told me that he really liked them, but had trouble blending tone with the 2nd clarinet in the Macon Symphony.
I play second in an orchestra where the principal plays Selmer Signatures. She has a very “German” sound. I have to admit that the Patricola clarinets have a lighter sound (to my ears). However, I haven’t found blending to be a problem, maybe since I’m usually playing lower harmony to her.
I’ve met a handful of pros in Atlanta who just love the Patricola Eb. They either have one or have tried it and really want one.
I like the bells and whistles that S. Rosenberg mentioned, but I especially like the distinctively different sound of the Patricola. Just about everybody around here (and everywhere else) plays Buffet. I feel like it helps make my sound a little unique, which can be a good thing at an audition or gig.
MOUTHPIECES:
Somebody please chime in again on the mouthpiece issue with C clarinets. I have heard that some makes and models are designed to take a Bb mouthpiece while others are specifically designed to take a special mouthpiece. The C-only mouthpiece is supposed to be better behaved; however, the Bb mouthpiece has obvious advantages when switching instruments. Does anyone know which models take which mouthpiece?
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Author: mark Zmyewski
Date: 2002-08-19 02:02
I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I guess I'll audition
some Patricolas, Buffets and Leblancs and see which strikes me.
For the "Ooh! Ah!"-factor, I'd like to get a Patricola, but I
guess I better find out which one better suits me, my playing
style, etc. My understanding is that since rosewood is less dense,
the sound is lighter, maybe even brighter. I'm not sure that's
what I want since I like a darker sound, but you never know!
I will pay attention to any discussion involving mouthpieces for
the C clarinet. Since I switch between my Bb and A quite a bit,
depending on the opera we're performing, I usually swap my
mouthpiece and barrel. If I get a C clarinet that needs its own
mouthpiece, that could pose some problems, especially if the horn
has been sitting for 30 minutes while I play the Bb and the A.
I suppose trying to make a quick change only to find out that not
only is the horn cold, but the reed is dry also...well...I don't
want to think about it. :-)
-Mark Zmyewski
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-19 02:18
mark Zmyewski wrote:
>
> My understanding is that since rosewood is less
> dense,
> the sound is lighter, maybe even brighter.
That's not how the physics work. The sound may be "lighter" or "brighter" (whatever those terms really mean) but it may not be because of the "lighter" or "brighter" colored wood.
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Author: Mark Zmyewski
Date: 2002-08-19 12:10
Mark Charette wrote:
>That's not how the physics work. The sound may be "lighter" or "brighter" (whatever those
>terms really mean) but it may not be because of the "lighter" or "brighter" colored wood.
Mark, please look at my statement again. I said that my understanding was that the
wood is less dense, not the pigment of the wood.
-Mark Zmyewski
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-08-19 14:21
I have worked professionally as an orchestral player for 15 years and have found C clarinets the most dissapointing of all. The reason why is they don't seem to possess the fullness of sonority of the lower pitched soprano Bb so I have given up on getting one unless for fishing. Instead I pfrefer to sight transpose instead of dealing with all the quirkiness of the C. I have tried Leblanc C's Buffet R13 C's and Selmer C's and just don't think they hold a candle in tone or tuning to their older brother Bb's and A's.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-08-19 16:48
One thing that I keep in mind is that a C and a Bb clarinet are simply not the same instrument. Their accoustical measurements are different. With this in mind, it makes a great deal of sense to me that an ideal mouthpiece for a C clarinet needs to be shorter in length and have a smaller amount of chamber volume than a mouthpiece designed for a Bb clarinet. Personally, I've had the best results on C clarinet using a mouthpiece specifically designed for a C clarinet. However, I know a number of C clarinet players who use a Bb mouthpiece and are happy with their set up. So, I guess the bottom line is whatever works best for you.
I wanted to mention to William that I'm currently working with my repair tech to upgrade the performance of my E-11 C clarinet. He's going to use better quality pads and adjust the height of several keys. Hopefully I'll be happier with the tonal quality of the instrument after he's worked his magic on it.
Over the weekend I spoke with Sue at Woodwinds and Brasswinds. Her personal clarinet is a Buffet. However, she spoke very highly of the Patricola clarinets that she has tested.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-19 17:00
Mark Zmyewski wrote:
>
>
> Mark, please look at my statement again. I said that my
> understanding was that the
> wood is less dense, not the pigment of the wood.
It's still not in the physics of the clarinet (the material is essentially irrelevant).
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-08-20 12:02
Mark,
I have to disagree with the statement that material is irrelevant. The material that is used to construct the body of a woodwind instrument definitely affects it's tonal color. An obvious example is the flute. Silver, gold, and platinum flutes have distinctly different tonal colors. In a similar manner, Baroque wood flutes constructed from boxwood, rosewood, or ebony sound different from one another. Even some saxophonists are convinced that the type of metal or finish makes a difference in the tonal quality of their instrument. Some saxophonists have taken to using a silver neck on the body of a gold finish sax. They say that a silver neck makes a big difference in the quality of their sound.
I have not played a rosewood clarinet. However, I have played Baroque flutes constructed of various types of woods -- in particular, rosewood, boxwood, maple, and ebony. I can confirm that a rosewood flute definitely has a lighter, brighter sound than an ebony flute. Baroque flutes were often made from boxwood. This was due to the particular quality of sound, and the amount of projection, that boxwood produces.
Hope this helps.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-08-20 12:11
Roger Aldridge wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I have to disagree with the statement that material is
> irrelevant. The material that is used to construct the body of
> a woodwind instrument definitely affects it's tonal color. ...
> Hope this helps.
Nope, doesn't help at all. We're talking clarinets here, and we're talking materials. Whether or not a flute's tone color is affected by material is irrelevant to the clarinet (and whether a flute's tone color is actually affected by material is yet another hotly debated topic).
There are a number of treatises on the acoutstics of wind instruments where controlled experiments have been performed, such as Art Benade's "Principles of Musical Acoustices".
This is an ongoing debate; the physicist will tell you that controlled experiments don't show a difference, but the musician in uncontrolled experiments will tell you there is. There may be differences in the sounds, but it is not clear at all that it's attributable to the material used.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-08-20 14:43
Mark,
You're absolutely correct. This is an ongoing debate. I've heard similar arguments pro and con regarding different mouthpiece materials, types of ligatures, etc having an effect on one's tone. The only thing I can say is that as a composer I can hear differences in tonal quality (sometimes subtle) with respect to different materials. Will these differeces appear in a controlled experiment? Perhaps not. I don't know why this happens.
Anyway, I don't put a lot of concern into this line of thought. It's very interesting and most curious. But for me, the most important thing is to find and use the particular combination of instrument, mouthpiece, reed, and ligature that sounds best to my ears for the type of sound that I want.
Perhaps one day some of these debates can be resolved.
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Author: Jon Hill
Date: 2002-09-27 18:05
I'd like to compliment both Mark Charette and Roger Aldridge
for a fascinating discussion that most musicians would never
engage in. Just as most drivers have no idea how an automobile
works, very few musicians have the slightest clue about how
their instruments produce those wonderful sounds. Now I'd like
to weigh in on this debate.
I've kicked this very question around with musicians and
physicists/musicians and heard both sides - that the material
an instrument is constructed from doesn't make a difference in
its sound and that it does. But any clarinetist who's
tried a metal instrument (from the 30's & 40's) can tell you that
material can make a difference. There's a reason that the best
clarinets are all made of wood, while modern flutes have gone
over almost exclusively to metal.
Consider the clarinet bore (or that
of any wind instrument) as a container that defines the
limits of a vibrating column of air. In geek-speak, by
changing fingerings we are actually changing the boundary conditions, and therefore the modes of vibration, of a second
order Bessler function, which can be
used (by physicists or acoustics wonks) to describe the sonic
vibrations in a conical chamber. Here is where we get to the
effects of material. The boundary conditions can be affected in
subtle, second-order ways by the rigidity of the confining
material, this phenomenum being know as
skin or surface effects. These are secondary effects to be sure,
but nontheless real and quite capable of subtly affecting the profile of overtones that determine the tonal 'coloration' of an
instrument. Perhaps this explanation offers a more scientific way
to account for many musicians' belief that rosewood clarinets
sound sweeter and lighter than their grenadilla cousins.
I personally own one rosewood and two cocobola Bb clarinets
(Patricola, ORSI and Howarth models) as well as several Buffet
grenadilla's. (Cocobola is related to rosewood but is denser
and darker in color and grows only in Central America). Using the same mouthpiece and reed I believe that I can tell a difference in
tone quality just between the rosewood and cocobola instruments,
and certainly between those 3 and the grenadilla horns. I
particularly like the sound produced by the two cocobola
instruments. The Patricola is a very nicely made instrument,
btw. (ORSI in Milan, Italy made to order a really sweet
little Bb instrument for me with gold-plate keys for under
$1200. Unfortunately, they are a small family company and don't
distribute outside of Europe.)
Of course, you might argue that the differences I think I perceive
are due to the method of manufacture not the material, but I
fall into Roger's camp on this one, base on the technical arguments
from above and my own personal experience.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2002-09-30 17:35
Jon,
As I mentioned in a previous message, there have been NUMERIOUS discussions, arguments, bar brawls, eye gouging, etc over this subject on the Sax On The Web forum. We have discussed wheter or not there are actual differences in tonal quality regarding metal versus hard rubber mouthpieces, various types of ligatures, types of metal finish on a saxophone, etc. At times it has not been pretty.
An essential question is do we hear our sound differently from how another person hears our sound when it goes out into a room? An idea that makes sense to me is to record each of the different conditions (same music each time), then listen carefully to the playback, and see if you can still hear the differences or not. This idea is not mine so I cannot take credit for it. Never the less, I think that it's a good idea.
If possible, please try this with your various clarinets and let us know what you find.
I'm thinking about getting a Patricola C clarinet within a couple of months. I want to go with grenadilla rather than rosewood. It's been my experience that the tone of a C clarinet is a bit brighter than that of a comparable Bb model. Thus, going with the darker sound of grenadilla makes sense to me. (Of course, there are some who might want a brighter sound.)
Would it be possible to give more detailed information about why you like Patricola? In particular, how does it's tone, intonation, and response compare with a R13.
PS... I, too, have an appreciation for cocobola wood. I used to have a flute made from it. It had an absolutely lovely sound. Another good thing about cocobola is that it's more resistant to cracking than other woods often used in woodwinds.
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