 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-07-30 12:57
I am curious as to whether professional players (who can tongue fairly quickly - single tonguing) ever used to struggle with the speed of their tonguing back in their university/college days. My teacher says repeated note scales are what helped him build his up, and I'm doing these but have not been able to get faster than semiquavers (16th notes) at 112 or 116. I would like to know what others recommend also. In my lesson a few days ago, we were doing the Mendelssohn Midsummer Nights Dream Scherzo and I played it really quickly and better than I ever have before just out of the blue at about 84 or 88...and he said "thats it! we've got it" then after the lesson I went to do it again, and my tongue slowed down again and I couldn't get the same character to the excerpt that I had earlier. Sorry if I am rambling. Any suggestions?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-30 13:21
In spite of extensive efforts and instruction over decades, my tonguing steadfastly refused to pass about 10 notes per second, which is not very useful for allegro.
This is a major reason why flute remains my No 1 instrument, where my double tonguing passes for single, and why all my reed playing is pit work, where tonguing is less common.
I firmly believe now that there may be physiological or neurological reasons why some people simply cannot tongue faster.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-07-30 13:48
I had no tongue speed consistently until I learned how to do it properly. Which was during my freshman year of college when I first got to Mr. Marcells. He didn't wait any longer than the 1st lesson to start fixing my articulation.
Ultimately, it boiled down to (for me) learning the proper technique and then strengthening the tongue until it could execute on demand whatever was asked.
Everyone seems to have a single tounguing speed potential that can at best be met but not exceeded. The goal is to be able to get all the way to that potential at any given moment and VERY IMPORTANTLY to be able to sustain the speed for more than a few consecutive notes.
In other words, the real challenge comes when you have 20 fast articulated notes in a row. If you can tongue 6 notes under control at one tempo, you should be able to do 20. It's a matter of poise and strength.
How you do it would take too long to write.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-07-30 14:31
Remember that the tongue is a muscle.
Just as a sprint runner doesn't only run fast, but also trains with weights and aerobic excercises, you should do strengthening excersizes.
I find that Robert Spring's warm-up routine addresses this very well. He uses Langenus No.11 at different speeds as well as articulated scales to get the tongue warmed up.
Take into account that because the tongue is a muscle, results will not be instantaneous. However, you should notice an improvement over time.
BTW, I also had much trouble with tonguing until I got to college. I had a "blind spot" (where I could tongue faster or slower) of about the speed of the Mendelssohn. As I did these excersizes, I could see the blind spot diminishing. However, to this day (and I have been playing the clarinet for over 40 years) it requires constant vigilance on my part.
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Author: James
Date: 2002-07-30 16:24
My gosh. I had the slowest tounging of all time. It was absolutely awful... Anyhow what helped me out was that I learned how to toung correctly. Like i didn't realize it, But i was using WAY too much tounge. I'm not sure if this is your problem becuase i'm not you but try this. Play an open g with your tounge on the reed. Touch it softly and play at ppp (it can be done) then close it off. That's how far your tounge really needs to go. And something much easier said than done, faster is ligher and less movement, instead of the heavier and slaping the hell out of the reed (my teacher that last comment for me several times, hehe)
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Author: ChattyClar
Date: 2002-07-30 16:51
Aussie Nick,
People fuss too much about tonguing. I'll tell you the same thing my teacher told me a long time ago when I was first learning to tongue. She said, "The tongue is a stupid muscle. It's the air that does all the work." Keep this in mind and you'll tongue at lightening speed. I would wager money that your fast tonguing days and slow tonguing days correspond to good air support days and bad air support days, respectively.
Mike~
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Author: anon
Date: 2002-07-30 18:43
Chatty Clar,
You're hitting the nail closer to the head than the others, in my opinion. Correct technique must be there, but it is the AIR. That's why the clarinet is a WIND instrument.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-30 22:41
1. It is unreasonable to assume that everybody else is the same as oneself in what they can do and what they cannot. Otherwise everybody would have the potential for competing in every Olympic event. Just because some tongue speeding up technique works for one person, does not mean it works for another. EVERYBODY has their limitations, otherwise we could ALL double our current tonguing speed with practice. 100 - 200 - 400 - 800 notes per second!! It just so happens that different people have different limitations for different reasons.
2. Strengthening the muscle may not be a valid answer. The tongue is a fairly well exercised muscle. To make it stronger will probably make it larger, which will make it more difficult to oscillate fast. Ever heard of a sumo wrestler or a weight lifter being a sprint runner?
3. As far as I know it is an established fact that it is impossible for many people to EVER succeed in rolling their 'RRRRR's. Perhaps this is relevant. I can roll my RRR's but my tonguing speed is pathetic; good days and bad days are both the same. For me to speed up is like getting a colour blind person to differentiate the colours, or a paraplegic to jump, or for the fast tonguers to double their tonguing speed.
We all have our limits in different ways. When we have reached them we may stretch them slightly, but not drastically exceed them.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-07-30 23:54
The air plays the instrument, but the tongue plays one of the most important musical roles in playing the instrument.
Articulation is not simple valve-mechanics. Parts of the ideal technique of articulation ARE valve-mechanics, but the tongue must be able to reproduce as many different styles of attacks as an opera singer, a pianist and a violinist all put together.
In addition, when playing repeated notes, the tongue must be CAPABLE of playing upwards of 20 consecutive AND identical notes without a break.
Of course, you won't always want to create 20 consecutive identical notes from a musical perspective, but there will be times when you will want to and thus you have to be able to do it.
The difference between being able to only one, two or five notes and being able to do many is, it seems to me, based on two things.
1. Knowing the correct, most uncomplicated technique for executing the desired articulation and having the ability to execute it flawlessly.
2. Having the stamina in the tongue muscle for it to be able to respond to the musical commands it receives through the brain. In other words, being IN CONDITION. Lots of slow, dedicated (and proper) practice has no substitute here.
So I have to disagree with Chatty and anon. Tonguing is something that has to be learned as soon as possible. And once learned, it has to be constantly reinforced.
David Hattner, NYC
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-07-31 01:56
Thanks for all the replies. Gordon, maybe I'm wrong but isn't 10 notes per second fairly rapid? I'm not sure I could do that, never tried though.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-07-31 07:12
Get a hold of Bonade's Compendium. There is a great section on staccato.
If you have some time off to really practice, then start from square one using his technique. Go very slow and try not to skip any steps.
It's like learning how to walk again, use a mirror to make sure your embouchure i set and your jawand throat are not moving.
It helped me and many others tremendously, it might just work for you too...
Another good thing to do when playing staccato scale is the "fingers ahead technique":
Do this very slowly:
1 play note.
2 put tongue on reed.
3 put finger down.
4 release tongue.
People tend to do 3&4 at the same time and I think doing 2&3 simultaneously is really the way to go. It will feel unnatural at first, but once you go faster this ensures that the fingers are set before the reed vibrates, making a nice and clean staccato. It is super useful for the runs in the Mendelsohn Scherzo.
I am not a pro player not even a music student just an amateur who's trying to squeeze 1 and 1/2 hours of practice a day so take it or leave it but I got those tips from very good pros and it definitely works for them ;->
I hope this helps,
-S
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-31 11:28
Aussie Nick: Yes, I miscalculated. Thanks for noticing.
I set the metronome to 100 and struggle to tongue 4 notes per click. That is 6.7 beats per second. And that has not changed a scrap in 40 years of playing and working on speed, some of it very conscientious indeed.
It is a big handicap if you can't set the metronome to 120, i.e. average allegro, and do 4 notes per beat as in the average allegro. That is 8 notes per second. Most players have no trouble with that, and many can tongue far faster, as is necessary, say, for Vivaldi.
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Author: LaLa
Date: 2002-07-31 12:49
I've found that the 1st thing to go when one takes a break is articulation. As Hat has said "Tonguing is something that has to be learned as soon as possible. And once learned, it has to be constantly reinforced. " I strongly strongly agree based on my own experience.
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Author: Ella
Date: 2002-07-31 18:22
This may be advice better suited for people whose tonguing came naturally to them (or does) but in any case... My masterclass teacher taught a simple tonguing exercise to reinforce speed and continuity. start at a metronome marking that's easy for you, say 90. play as legato as you can: 1)a note on evey click for 4 clicks 2) 2 notes per click for four clicks 3) triplets for 4 clicks 4)sixteenths for four clicks. In about a week of doing this, I brought my tonguing from 112 to 120. I'm having a lot of trouble getting past 120, though. My tonguing has always come pretty naturally for me, so this exercise was good because I didn't need very much practice to become a better tonguer. Oh, the tonguing exercise is done on an open g.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-08-01 02:01
Yes, the exercises help us to reach our personal limit, but the actual personal limit seems to vary widely for different people.
It is easy for those with a very fast personal limit to assume that EVERYBODY has the potential to reach the same limit. In fact we vary quite a lot in out personal limits.
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