 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gordon
Date: 2002-07-24 18:41
I'm reluctant to bring this topic up, since it's probably been well-worked over in the Phorum, but I'm going to do it anyway, especially since I'm introducing a new twist. I've just started attending the Phorum recently, and reading through the Sneezy.org archives on the issue doesn't address my issues. Which are:
1. Should I buy a Buffet Greenline?
2. Is it worth the price?
3. Is there much difference between an R13 greenline and an RC greenline?
Recently I wrote to a number of the woodwind houses, asking stock and pricing questions. One of them wrote back: "No, I don't keep them in stock and I'm afraid
I've got to say I've never sold one. To us, it's only a plastic clarinet.
Or should I say, 'A plastic clarinet with a big price.'"
Clearly other people share this opinion. But whatever clarinet I buy will spend part of the year travelling about North and Central America with me, from Alaska to Costa Rica, sometimes housed in a pop-up camper on the back of a 4-wheel drive pick-up, where the temperatures vary between zero and 100 degrees, with equal variations in humidity. Other parts of the year, it will play in a community orchestra and (I hope) in amateur woodwind ensembles. Even if the greenline is plastic and over-priced, it may very well be the ideal instrument for such useage and conditions. I would like to hear opinions and alternatives. Thanks.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-07-24 19:42
you will find people who are in love with the most bizzare clarinets, and who feel that that instrument is the best/greatest etc.... undoubtedly someone will write to tell you that the Greenline is fabulous. For the shop to "run down" the greenline like that only exposes them as ignorant, who was is?
the greenline is a proffessional clarinet, made by exactly the same process as a wood clarinet. from my exerience, there are lots of horrible R13s out there that Buffet should be embarrassed to try and sell. This is probably then also the case for the Greenline R13 (since they are made on the same assembly line). It seems fairly safe to assume then that there will also somewhere be a really good Greenline that plays as well as the best R13.
donald
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Author: Rob
Date: 2002-07-24 23:22
I could never be mistaken for a member of the R-13 mafia, but I must agree with nzdonald. As the manufacturing process is the same used for the wooden R-13 or RC, the incidence of poor quality or excellent quality should be roughly equal between wood and the composite models. Also remember that just because someone doesn't like something new doesn't mean it has no value. I am reminded of the elderly woman I encoutered many years ago who insisted she had no use for a television set because she already had a fireplace. My own sister, an otherwise rational and educated woman (she is a medical doctor, among other things) refused for many years to purchase or operate an automobile equipped with power steering because she was certain it was a dangerous mechanism and that the car would unexpectedly careen out her control. The shopkeeper though, likely thought that his comments would convince you to purchase something else - and purchase it from him. As my mother taught all her children, "Everybody's got an angle so let your own experience be your own truth". I think the same is true when you're buying a clarinet.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-07-25 00:18
Are not the Greenline's comprised of 95% grenadilla dust and 5% composite material? This would be ideal for someone who travels alot in different temperate zones. I understand that the finishing is as professionally done as on the R13's.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-07-25 01:09
I spent a fair amount of time at Clarinetfest 2001 play testing the Buffet line. They obviously brought fairly good instruments to the show. As I have mentioned before, the sound - just switching the same mouthpiece and reed between horns - for the Greenlines (3) that I tried was good. It is good but just a little different to my tonal ear than the R-13's - not bad different but just slightly different. You of course would have to try several for yourself and be sure that they were all well regulated and adjusted (which you do so well anyway). To buy a horn that will be traveled and exposed to wide temperature variations I feel that it would be a good choice if you pocketbook will tolerate it - they appear to be about the same price (about 1/2 to 2/3 MSRP) as the R-13's. I do not belong to the Buffet Mafia (I also tried out most of the Selmer and LeBlanc horns at the show and liked some of their wood models too before I got too busy), but, of the new horns out there in composite or plastic, it sounds the best to me. Note that I am not a professional (making a living that is ---- oops I feel a joke coming on) musician and they should chime in on their feelings. It might be a good idea when you hit the U.S. to stop in N.Y., Indiana, or Chicago where you can get your hands on several Greenlines at one time to play test.
The Doctor
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-07-25 01:51
There has been enough discussion on this board to give the greenline a respectable reputation. Some people say they hear a difference, some don't. Quite a few pros play this instrument so it must of some value.
I personally think that the only gold standard is intonation.
Under normal circumstances I would say that if you find a horn tuned properly and that you feel comfortable with then you should buy it wether it is in plastic, wood, buffet, selmer, leblanc, yamaha, ...
Now, considering what your horn will have to go through, the greenline seems the obvious choice. As always try as many horns as you can before you buy anything.
I have also heard in this BB that greenlines are hard to find due to procuction delays at the Buffet factory.
I guess good luck and keep us posted!
-S
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-07-25 06:09
Gordon:
If you are in the Los Angeles or Torrance areas, it would be fun to meet you and, at least, buy you lunch. Since I may be moving soon to an undetermined site, I can't yet say that I have room for other hospitality.
The only time I heard a Greenline, I thought that it did not ring the same as R13s heard at the same time, as far as sound is concerned. I thought liked the R13s better but without the comparison, I probably wouldn't hear the difference. Sometimes when I hear an R13 or a 10G, it really grabs me. Good Wishes!
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Author: Jim A
Date: 2002-07-25 06:24
Let me know if you are going to make it to Ketchikan, in Southeast Alaska. Maybe we can get together.
Jim
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2002-07-25 11:57
Muncy Winds has several in stock.
(I was there two weeks ago.)
To broaden your scope a little, have a look at the Vito VSP, Ridenour 147 and Howarth line.
The Vito and Ridenour are good enough to play in public, and inexpensive enough that you could bring along a spare.
The bicycle racers on the Tour de France stick to reliable equipment that will go the distance. If you're touring the hinterlands, this approach may serve you well.
Perhaps a few Valentino pads and some Teflon (plumber's) tape will come in handy, too.
Send us pics, won't you?
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-07-25 12:40
I'm not a flack for Buffet Crampon, but I have visited their factory and know several of the people working there. I have also tried Greenlines side by side with the equivalent wooden clarinets. Based on this experience, I would say:
1. Greenline is not plastic.It is a kind of reconstituted wood made of grenadilla dust and carbon. It looks like wood. It feels like wood. And in my experience it plays like wood. Michel Arrignon, who is one of France's finest clarinettists and who tests instruments for Buffet Crampon, plays on a Greenline.
2. Buffet developed the material firstly because of a looming shortage of mature African blackwood suitable for instrument making. Do a search for blackwood on the Internet, and you will find a site dedicated to this problem. In clarinet making, a lot of dust is created in the machining process, and also the company rejects a large number of wooden billets it considers sub-standard for manufacturing professional instruments. Grinding up and using this material not only saves the company money, but it also is a hedge against any shortage of superior quality blackwood in future.
3. The designers also wanted Greenwood to have positive qualities in its own right, namely resistance to climate change and cracking. This is more of a problem in the United States than Europe because of the variations in climate and more effective central heating. I think I am right in saying that most Buffet oboes shipped to the United States contain Greenline material because of their greater susceptibility to cracking.
4. Greenline is somewhat harder than wood, and Buffet had to develop special machine tools to deal with it. Apart from that, a Greenline clarinet is assembled in the same way as a wooden clarinet. There is no difference in final manufactured quality, which I think reaches a very high standard. When I bought an A clarinet earlier this year, I tried 11 instruments, including a Greenline, and they were all good. I thought the one I selected was exceptional.
Finally, of course, there is a considerable difference between the 13 series mostly sold in the United States, and the RC series, which is popular in Europe and Japan.
I hope this helps.
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Author: ChattyClar
Date: 2002-07-25 13:50
I have a traditional R13 Bb and a greenline A. When I was buying my Bb, I tried out both. The traditional had a sweeter sound. HOWEVER, I love my greenline A. It is very responsive and dark. I've heard that other people have had a similar experience with greenline A's. I know Chuck West at VCU plays on a greeline A.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-25 14:46
I have absolutely no experience with the Greenline instruments but do have experience with plastic and wood ones and with materials engineering in general. Wood is composed of longitudinal "fibres" arranged in concentric rings and this gives wood products a relatively high yield strength in bending and toughness compared to molded products. My only reservation and concern about the Greenlines would be a possible tendency for the tenons to be more prone to breakage compared to wood instruments...note "breakage" , not cracking. I have the same reservations about "plastic" clarinets. All this means is "handle with more care". If BH develops a modified Greenline containing longitudinal fibres(not chopped fibres) I my reservations would vanish.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-07-25 16:57
Bob,
I think the carbon fibres in Greenlines are arranged longitudinally, although since the exact composition of the material is a trade secret it is possible to know with certainty.
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Author: James
Date: 2002-07-25 17:20
First must i say that i love this forum. It's so fun to read what other people to have to say. Since you half given your opinioin, let me give you mine:
A couple of years ago. Back when I was a leblanc fanatic I was at international musical suppliers and I went through every A clarinet I could find at the shop. Somewhere along the line I came across this clarinet that played amazingly well. Non of the others A's compared in intonation, and tone quality. Once I played it for a while I decided to look it over. Then I saw it was a "greenline" clarinet and somehow in my mind. I just put it away. Just like that. I think I did this because at the time (might i also let you know i was a freshman in high school) I think a lot of clarinetists like myself have a fear of being different in a way from the rest of the clarinet world. "would if i sound different from the rest of them, would if my scale is different than the rest of my section". So a lot of stick to the Wood R13 to stick with the standard. Now I am not saying that the R13 isn't the best for me becuase let me tell you it is. those are the best sounding clarinets I have ever tried. But, we should be more open as clarinetist to accepting new types of technology. Those green line horns can be just as awesome as a good r13. Anyhow back then I ended up picking up a concerto and now that i am back on buffet the hunt for a new a clarinet continues..... Boy do i wish i had that greenline A from IMS but I am sure its long gone considering three years have passed....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-26 14:03
I have seen many btroken tenons on plastic Vitos, Armstrongs, Accords, etc, but I think I have seen more broken wooden tenons than I have broken plastic Yamaha tenons. With plastics it is to do with the particular plastic and a design which avoids 'stress raisers'.
Broken wooden tenons are usually a shattered mess, whereas broken plastic ones are clean breaks, which I have almost invisibly glued and pinned (six 1.2 mm stainless steel 30 mm rods) many times with no failures. This repair is probably stronger than the rest of the body, and takes me about 90 minutes.
So with these considerations, along with the carbon fibre reinforcing in the Greenlines, I would not be too worried.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-26 14:07
Another, more traditional approach to a broken tenon is to make a new one and 'graft' it onto the instrument. This method is well tried and very successful also. I have found it takes significantly longer.
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Author: beecee
Date: 2002-07-26 20:18
Another view.
Considering the quality of the grenadilla due to its supply, one has to wonder just how good any new wood instrument really is. My teacher's wood R-13 cracked after having it for 8 years. When will yours crack - 2, 8, 10, 15 ???? - I do not need to worry about that, nor do I need to spend more money on repairs or a new horn. I went for the composit R-13, the greenline, and glad I did. It truly is an amazing horn with clean sound in all registers. I feel good about the idea of only having to buy one horn in my lifetime - and no need to wory about the changing environment.
As for the manufacturing process - I would assume that this would be more consistent due to the blank not being subject to the elements during manufacturing (expansion due to humidy or even due to the heat caused by the friction during the boring and drilling process). Indeed, I've been told that greenlines are more consistent compared to their sister R13s. Beejay - any thoughts on this from your tour?
One last note on key quality - I have Ni plated keys which have worn down fairly quickly - less than siz months. I wash my hands prior to each use and I wipe the horn down after. I wrote Buffet, but never even got a reply. I wounder if this poor workmenship in key plating is unique to Buffet, or do other manufactures also suffer from the same problem?
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Author: Gordon
Date: 2002-07-26 21:15
Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to this topic. I've enjoyed reading the variety of the responses and I've learned quite a bit. As many people have commented in different posts over the last few weeks, this is a unique bulletin board. So much knowledge, entertaining BS and good humor!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-28 11:41
beecee, the nickel plating on plastic, student Yamaha models is very robust indeed. Likewise for variouis other student makes.
Could it be from embarrassment/shame and/or arrogance that Buffet gave you no response???
Do they read this forum?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-28 15:55
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Could it be from embarrassment/shame and/or arrogance that
> Buffet gave you no response???
Gordon, what kind of inflammatory rhetoric is this? We don't need it here.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-29 07:48
OK. Perhaps some manufacturers need some flame under them in their handling of issues which have great importance to their customers. I certainly did not intend inflaming anybody in this forum. Is somebody inflamed?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-29 10:40
I am - in the manner you pose rhetorical questions. You have no idea why this person got no response from Buffet. Perhaps it was misaddressed mail. To put motive where it doesn't belong is highly judgemental.
We all know of your love of Yamaha instruments, for what are very good mechanical reasons it seems, and pointing out factual problems with other brands is fine and dandy. Using this kind of inflammatory language is not.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-30 01:42
Yes there could be many reasons for not answering. I supose I was responding more from personal experience.
I have personally found great difficulty getting responses from Buffet, Selmer, AND Yamaha. This particular statement is factual.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-30 12:03
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
>
> I have personally found great difficulty getting responses from
> Buffet, Selmer, AND Yamaha. This particular statement is
> factual.
I have personally found great difficulty getting responses from
Selmer. This particular statement is factual. And relatively meaningless.
And I play a 10G ...
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