 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beth b.
Date: 2002-07-22 15:32
Ok, I need some help, opinions and being pointed in the right direction! The bass clarinet I've been playing on has to go back to school this fall so I'll be without one to play! (No offense folks, but I don't want to go back to playing my "regular" clarinet) I've only been playing bass for a little less than a year (a new student grade selmer) and am just starting to really get comfortable with it so I don't really trust my "instincts" yet now that its come time for me to start looking to buy a used bass for myself.
I did a quick look at ebay and looked at past auctions of basses and they mostly figure at a price range I can afford. But, I tend to be a bit leery of ebay. So this is where y'all come in <g>... can y'all give me the 5 cent lecture on what to look for in buying a used bass clarinet; i.e. some names that I can seriously look into, what to be on the look-out for, what to be cautious of etc. It doesn't matter to me, wood or plastic and I know I'm going to have to put some money into it aside from the purchase price.
Any "pearls of wisdom" are greatly appreciated!
beth
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Author: Ted Donaldson
Date: 2002-07-22 16:15
Ok... Well tell us more what you are looking for... Are you looking for something to get you through highschool or college? Or do you never want to buy another one again?
You can always trust buffet and selmer for basses. I don't know much about leblanc's quality, but I do know it is a trustworthy brand. Stay away from any chinese cheap ones...
If you are going to march get a plastic vito or bundy. If you are going to play in band, you should really consider a wood one.
Always play before you pay, just to keep you out of trouble. Don't expect it to be perfect, although it might not sound good, a few new pads and a good mouthpiece could make it sound great.
Just some words of advice, if you want to even consider playing bass in an orchestra or anything, keep on playing soprano. I know of two people who have gone pro playing bass only, those being Henri Bok, and Dennis Smylie.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-22 17:25
beth, b. I, personally, would not go about it without knowing ahead of time where I would be willing to send it for the necessary modifications/repairs that undoubtedly would be necessary when I got it. Along with that is also the consideration of how much you would be willing to chuck in with your original purchase price and shipping for "reconstruction.". One way to do this is to decide (as I did) who might be willing to help you through this and get in touch with him/her. I contacted a professional bass player and repair technician and then asked him to overview what was available on e-bay, and to suggest an instrument that he thought was capable of repair and would meet my needs. That having been done, assuming your bidding(based on the repairmans suggestions) is the highest, ask the seller (e-bay) to ship it directly to your selected technician and insure it for the value of the bid. That will save one shipping fee.
Much e-mail traffic can result from this exchange of information between you and your techie, but you two should get to know each other very well before it is over. Have him suggest modifications you might wish to have ( "Bay-type" neck for example, and a floor peg , etc.)
I contacted Dave Spiegelthal. <spiegelthat.dave@orbital.com> He was crazy enough to agree to work with me and I had a very successful transaction from start to finish. I am very pleased with the results.
Check through our "sneezy" clasifieds to get the names and e-mals of others who are in the reconstruction business. Bob A
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Author: beth b.
Date: 2002-07-22 19:20
Well, you could say I'm a 45 y.o. "retread" now playing with two community bands for the fun of it and 3 to 4 times yrly. with a local college with absolutely no aspirations to play more than that! The band marches in local parades and I play my soprano in parades. So, this will be a one-time purchase for me. I'm not hung up on wood or plastic and I guess I'm looking for an "intermediate" quality instrument.
I do have a friend who is also an excellent repair technician who is going to do the work for me, but unfortunately he's out of the country for the summer, (and my fingers are crossed hoping he does come back and not relocate overseas) so I'm hoping to do some legwork and have an idea of where I'm going on this. I assumed the "big four's" basses are decent; but I've only played this selmer that I've had on long-term loan. I don't know much at all about the other names I've seen pop up from time to time, Kohlert, Conn, Buescher etc. and I'm hoping to get some opinions about these other names I see pop up.
beth b.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-22 20:38
Back again. Depending on how old an instrument you are looking for several makers have put out "stencils" for the bigger named companies. I have a hard-rubber "Conn" which was made by R. Malerne in France (down the road from the Buffet bunch). Some Kohlert's are good, some bad. Ask Dave S. He has restored several. Check his listings and others through the "Classified" on this BB and you will see some good buys from J. Butler, Dave S. and others. Ask questions of anybody on the BB, nobody will bite you.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-22 20:42
Back for the third time. Check the thread posted as "York Clarinet". Lots off good info there also on other makes.
Bob A
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-22 20:44
Beth,
So, ya want opinions, eh? Well, I gotta few, and they're free and worth every cent you paid for them:
Category 1: Used bass clarinets that could play at an advanced or pro level given a proper overhaul, without 'unusual' modifications:
---Buffet
---Selmer
Category 2: Used bass clarinets that play at an intermediate level with a proper overhaul and without modifications, but could play at an advanced/pro level with certain 'unusual' modifications:
---Leblanc, Noblet
---Kohlert
---Marigaux (distributed by King)
---Amati (the latest series) (No personal experience with this)
Category 3: Used bass clarinets that play at a student level with a proper overhaul, but could play at an intermediate level with certain 'unusual' modifications:
--- R. Malerne, and all the Malerne stencils (lots of 'em out there) labelled with such names as Conn, Olds, Linton, York, Jean Cartier, and probably more.
---Various littler-known French wood basses under various names such as M. Lacroix, Guy Humphrey, etc.
--- Vito and Normandy (and plastic Wurlitzer) --- All Leblanc products
---George Bundy (old wood models, fairly rare)
--- Bundy (now Selmer USA) (and plastic Buescher)
--- Conn (older, non-Malerne-built models)
---Some current Taiwanese instruments such as Jupiter, possibly a few others
Category 4: Hopeless bass clarinets:
---The majority of Chinese-made instruments currently on the market (although they are improving)
--- Amati (the older, pre-600-series)
--- ANY bass clarinet with a substandard overhaul
The 'unusual' modifications I referred to include such things as tonehole undercutting and/or reshaping, tonehole relocation, register vent replacement or modification, register mechanism 'recalibrating', neck re-angling, and keywork modifications. These tasks are very time-consuming and may not be worth the effort on many instruments --- I usually do them as a labor of love and as a learning experience, but when doing these things on somebody else's instrument I either lose my shirt or get the equivalent of poverty wages, tops.
Disclaimer: This is all just my opinion, is subject to change without notice, is partially based on some actual experience (but not enough!) and partially on hearsay, is incomplete, and is guaranteed to be unfair to or offend someone or some brand. Hope it helps anyway.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-22 22:47
Ted,
The couple of Marigaux bass clarinets I've seen, although beautifully made, have single-register vent systems which (IMHO) effectively preclude them from pro status, because of the inherent intonation problems and stuffiness of the lower clarion notes C through D# with such designs. Pretty much across the board, pro-level bass clarinets have double-register vent mechanisms, despite the increased complexity and 'finicky-ness' of these. Now, if your Marigaux does have a double-register mechanism (it must have a second bridge key across the body joint break for this to be so), then I'll concede that yours could be an advanced/pro horn.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-22 22:52
Just a little story (mainly for Ted D): When I was a high-school student playing a wood Noblet (single-register design intermediate bass clarinet), at the urging of my instructor I wrote a letter to Leon Lester, the retired bass clarinetist of the Philadelphia Orchestra, asking him if my Noblet/Leblanc instrument was suitable for symphony work. His response was basically, "the Leblancs are good instruments, but for professional work one would need a Buffet or Selmer". I was heartbroken, but now I understand why he wrote that (remember that even the "pro" Leblanc basses for the most part have the reliable and sturdy but acoustically inadequate single-vent system).
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Author: William
Date: 2002-07-23 01:45
I vote for the Selmer Bundy Resonite bass clarinet with a Selmer C* bass mouthpiece customized by Walter Grabner of Highland Park, IL.(a Sneezy Sponser and. BTW, and a *good guy*)
(WARNING--playing the bass clarinet can be addictive, but even More Fun with a good mouthpiece) enjoy......often, and good luck.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-07-23 04:46
I haven't seen a King Marigaux bass up close and personal so I can't comment on their register keys. My King Marigaux alto, however, has a double-register vent mechanism. So does my Noblet bass (diamond-shaped label).
I think the Noblet is a pretty good value for the dollar ($500 - $800 on eBay). If you search the Klarinet archives, you will find positive comments from a number of list members, including Clark Fobes. Otherwise, considering how you intend to use the instrument, if I were you, I would look for a relatively recent plastic model from one of the "Big 4" (Selmer, Buffet, Leblanc or Yamaha) in good condition.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mike Harrelson
Date: 2002-07-23 05:51
Beth, for what its worth, I went through the same process of reading, learning and searching for a used bass (and for pretty much the same reason as you). I finally decided that for about the cost and repair of a used bass I could purchase a new student bass. About a year ago I got a new vito with leather pads (I already had a good mouthpiece), it was adjusted and regulated by a good local tech. I have been very happy with it. A privately owned student bass in the hands of an adult who takes care of it can be a good instrument too.
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Author: Ted Donaldson
Date: 2002-07-23 10:29
Mr. Dave :P My bass has a double vent register, So i do not know if it is newer or older than the Marigauxs that you looked at, or just a higher model. Thanks though for your opinion.
And I second the Grabner mouthpiece!
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Author: Ted Donaldson
Date: 2002-07-23 10:48
Well let me take that back. It doesn't have a second bridge key, but it does have another interesting mechanisim I haven't seen on any other basses I have seen up close.
Well acutally I have no clue what it is, and if anyone can get a backside picture of the top joint of a bass, I would appreciate it.
But it does have an Ab G# lever...
Sorry for the confusion,
Ted
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-23 15:16
Jack K,
I've rarely caught you in a mistake on the BB, but I believe you're incorrect on the Noblet bass clarinet -- it does have two vents operated by the register key, as does every bass, but they are the 'throat Bb' tonehole and the SINGLE register vent, which opens from the middle B all the way up. What I mean by a DOUBLE register vent is the presence of a second small hole, operated by a linkage coming all the way up from the r.h. ring finger key, across a second bridge key. This linkage opens the lower vent from clarion low B through D#, then above that note the lower vent shuts and the upper vent (usually a small hole like a sax octave vent, on the neck or way up on top of the upper joint) opens. I've never seen a Noblet with such a mechanism, although (as always) I could be wrong.
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Author: Don
Date: 2002-07-24 00:01
Beth,
As one who plays bass & contrabass with three college and semi-pro wind ensembles, do NOT give up your soprano Bb clarinet for a minute. When you get to college, you will audition on soprano Bb and not bass. While I dearly love the low clarinets, you are a clarinetist first and a bass clarinetist second. Case in point: A few years ago I attended a live performance by David Howard who is the bass clarinet player in the LA Philharmonic of the Brahms quintet. Absolutely unbelievable. My own teacher, Helen Goode-Castro is a marvelous bass clarinetist and plays "second bass" when the LA Phil needs one for "Rite of Spring" et. al. But Helen's first instrument is the "clarinet." Don't specialize too early in your career.
Don Gross
La Canada, California
p.s. In addition to playing contra in three wind ensembles (Claremont Symphonic Winds, Caltech/Occidental College Concert Band, and the Cal State Los Angeles Winde Ensemble), I also play soprano Bb in the Topanga Symphony and the Glendale College Community Orchestra. Good Luck!
p.p.s. Re: Bass clarinets: there's Selmer and Buffet and then "all the rest."
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Author: Jean
Date: 2002-07-24 02:55
I have played bass for almost thirty years and adore the instrument, however if I want to work I need to play clarinet as well, so for the past couple of years I have worked and worked on clarinet. It has not hindered my bass clarinet playing in the least which had been my fear.
Dave S. who I know from the contra group is a wise man and I agree with his opinions on the quality of instruments. Five years ago when I tried out new basses I found the difference between the Buffets and Leblanc was the difference between a Chevy and a Mercedes. The Leblanc frankly stunk. I do however like their sopranos and own an A soprano. I truly love my Buffet but unless you are in a position to spend a chunk of money a new one is darned expensive. I do intend this to be the last bass I purchase. I played on a Selmer a few years ago and hated it. However they are constantly making changes to instruments so they may be excellent now.
If you are wanting a student model William has the right idea. A good mouthpiece is a must. Most stuents mouthpieces for the bass clarinet are junk. Spend 100-200 dollars on a good mouthpiece and take care of it. YOu can always use it when you upgrade to a pro bass model one day. It may sound like a lot of money but it makes a big difference.
Best of luck...
Jean
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-07-24 03:22
Dave S.
You caught me this time. Having never played an instrument with the mechanism you describe, I didn't even know it existed. I couldn't quite visualize what you were saying in your first post about the Marigaux and your mention of the the second bridge key went in one eye and out the other. I simply equated "double register vent" with mechanisms like the Kaspar/Stubbins mechanism or the one on the old Selmer Omega which allowed the use of separate tone holes for the throat tones and the register key on soprano clarinets. Tonight, at our band concert, I sneaked a glance at our bass clarinetist's professional Buffet and I now see what you're talking about. You are correct. My Noblet does not have that mechanism. Nor does my alto. One of the confusing things about the alto is that the register/throat mechanism looks like a Rube Goldberg contraption with all kinds of levers (no pulleys that I can see, however ;^) )and at least 4 adjusting screws! -- it looks like something that might have been left over from the design of the oboe. That said, it works remarkably well. BTW, I have never noticed any particular problem with stuffyness in the lower clarion of my Noblet (though perhaps I would if I played a bass with the second register vent). Thanks for pointing out my error. I learned something today. (The other thing I learned was, when performing Semper Fidelis, either play it all as written or transpose everything down an octave. Jumping back and forth is risky. Sousa did not intend his music to be aleatoric.)
Best regards,
Jack
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-24 13:55
Jack,
They say 'it's hard to be humble', so you have my admiration! Don't feel bad, I've been playing bass clarinet for about 30 years and wrenching on them in earnest for about 5, and have only recently come to really understand the register mechanisms and how and why they work (and reading Arthur Benade's book helped quite a bit). I've done a bit of experimentation in this area, and here's what happened:
1) On a Malerne bass clarinet (single register vent design) I added a second register vent, sized and located exactly like the one on my personal Kohlert, operated by a second thumb key (i.e. an old-style manual double register key). It certainly did improve the tone, response, and intonation of the lower clarion B through D#, but was rather awkward to operate and I didn't really get comfortable with it in the two weeks I had the instrument before it was sold.
2) On my Buescher (identical to Bundy) EEb contra-alto clarinet, I tried adding a very small vent, operated by a home-made 'sliver key' arrangement, to provide an altissimo vent similar to the half-hole on modern bass clarinets (the small hole in the l.h. index finger key cup). I tried three different locations for this hole and about the same number of hole/tube sizes, and it didn't work (or I should say it barely worked) -- the modification only slightly improved the response of the altissimo notes. The point of this is, register mechanisms are tricky and are still far from perfected, nor are they (as far as I know and despite Benade) thoroughly understood yet. There are many factors that distinguish good from not-so-good bass clarinets, and type of register mechanism is just one of them --- by itself it does not determine the 'goodness' of an instrument.
Finally, I agree with your comment on Sousa --- I had sort of the same mini-revelation this past Sunday playing "Stars and Stripes' with a community band -- improvising the octaves is neither desirable nor appreciated by most conductors!
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Author: beth b.
Date: 2002-07-24 14:22
I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice y'all have given me. It's given me quite a bit to mull over.... Yes, I know a better mouthpiece does wonders. That was the first change I did after I gained some confidence and understanding of the bass clari sound. After alot of picking and choosing I settled on a selmer C* and after trying scads of different reeds, I'm using Hemke tenor sax reeds, fairly soft, 2 1/2. With the music my bands play, it was the right set-up for me. Now, I just have to find a bass clari to plug my mouthpiece into. <g>
thanks again - beth b.
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Author: William Hughes
Date: 2002-07-24 14:43
Jack and David:
Sousa may be spinning in his grave, but on my EEb Contra I play the first 22 bars, plus repeat, of Stars and Stripes from the bassoon part then switch to the string bass part.
Beth:
Sorry to hijack your thread and good luck in your search.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-24 17:54
William H,
Don't worry about Sousa spinning, he probably couldn't hear notes that low anyway! However, when those trumpet players start taking things up an octave.............Glad your playing that contra. I've been playing mine quite a bit too, I'm almost enjoying it more than the bass now (in fact, I recently recorded a rehearsal of a clarinet choir in which I play both contra and bass, depending on the piece, and I can hardly tell which horn I'm playing from the sound --- I normally don't like Bundy instruments, but I have to admit their EEb contra is pretty darn good!) Sorry about the tangential rambling.
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