 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: the clarinator
Date: 2002-07-23 04:18
Hello my good and knowledgable friends.
I've seen much discussion about reeds this and reeds that. How to adjust them and break them in. I have not however heard anyone talk of oiling the reed to prevent cracking. A friend of mine who has been playing for more years than even he cares to remember, tells me he regularly oils his reeds with a combination of olive oil, vitamin e oil, almond extract and baking soda. He tells me it saves his reeds from the dying process brought on by drying out. He says he has used the same two reeds since 1957! The secret he says is the oiling. Is he lying? I've seen the two reeds and they DO look pretty old.
The Clarinator
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-07-23 06:09
Q: Is Clarinator's friend lying?
A: How could anyone out here know that?
You know your friend way better than anyone hanging out here at Sneezy's. The only way you might determine his veracity, if you're really inclined to doubt it, would be an eyewitness account - every day since 1957 until now. Where else're you gonna get that kind of information besides your friend, Clarinator?
Personally, I have no problem believing sincere people - especially when no harm can come from it. From your own observation, you say, you've seen the evidence. Actually, I feel priviledged when folks share personal things like that. His reed treatment formula may work as well as plastic coating for all I know - which, admittedly, isn't much. Perhaps he's also much more careful with his reeds than most of us ordinarily are :|
As interesting and informative as your post is, Clarinator, I'm as much interested to know whether you've tried your friend's reed preservative. If not, it might be worthwhile to do so and let us know Your finding after a few weeks.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2002-07-23 13:55
I am personally very doubtful. Even a plastic reed would not last that long because chances are great that somewhere in the 45-year time frame a reed will be accidentally bumped, bitten, bent, crushed or gouged, splitting or fraying the tip.
In addition, reeds become softer over time just through the mechanical process of vibrating. The constant flexing gradually breaks down bonds between molecules. The more that are broken, the softer the reed becomes.
Besides, most of those oils will go rancid after exposure to the bacteria in your friend's mouth.
Needless to say, I am highly skeptical, unless your friend doesn't play clarinet, in which case two reeds are as useful to him now as they were in 1957.
By the way, I just noticed that one of your legs is longer than the other. Has anyone been pulling on it lately?
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-23 14:47
"The majority of things in the world are such that one would not believe them if one were told; only those who experience them know"...."" One of the things that experience teaches us is that there are truths that we would not believe unless we experience it ourself. And among clarinet players many of the "old timers" know things that younger players would scoff at. I used to laugh at my father when he said he could hypnotize chickens....until I saw him do it. If I say I have been playing a reed for ten years it doesn't necessarily mean I play it every day or even often...OK? I myself have used various oils on reeds based on the belief that they are plant products similar to wood and might be amenable to oil preservation. I cannot tell you that any of these oils prolonged the life of the reed beyond what it might have lasted without treatment(how would one know?). Why would you not believe your friend?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-07-23 15:29
The interesting question for me is:
Does oiling reeds help them last longer?
We had many discussion about reed life expectancy. Some products exists but usually are based on cleaning solutions.
I wonder if any of our experts have heard about oiling a reed. I personnaly never tried.
I also have no problem believing somebody is playing the same reeds since 1957. It does not mean they are good reeds.
-S
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-07-23 16:25
One could expect that the reed could be less vibrant if soaked in a vibration damping fluid. It also may be less stable due to a balance change, making notes like E4 more difficult to play. Harmonic content of the sound will also possibly be changed. The fluid will fill the natural fine open tubes that run the length of the reed, depositing and drying inside. Good luck!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-07-23 18:15
Very interesting concept but I too am skeptical - being a scientist I try not to dismiss things that I have not tried or have no credible data with which to refute.
However - with my collegue, friend and fellow scientist that invented ReedLife - we have tried "umteen" formulations on reeds to preserve the playing characteristics and among these have been various oils including almond oil (there is of course a difference in the almond extract sold in food stores which is obtained from the bitter almond seed and has a very aromatic odor and sweet almond oil used in many wood preservation formulations), antioxidants (including vitamin E - which actually works well in animal fat systems but poorly in plant oils - there are many much more potent plant derived antioxidant compounds). Now the baking soda - would provide an alkaline environment but beyond that I have no earthly idea. None of these compounds should serve well as humectant (maintaining a water balance) role.
We have tested and evaluated many humectant formulations garnered from historical research and modern product formulary data but the best ones we have come up with are water based and not oil based. The oils might increase the elasticity of the vascular bundles in the reed structure but we have not noted significant improvement in breakage due to vibrational movement in a statistically controlled microscopic examination of reeds treated with various formulations of oils and a control group from the same box of reeds. The vibrational forces were applied to each reed with a precisely tuned piazo electric element. The only good observation that came out of this group of experiments was a pretty accurate way to measure reed vibrational characterisics that might be applied as quality control parameters in reed manufacture or grading reeds by "strength".
The Doctor
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-07-23 18:57
Once again The Doctor has a very good answer...
Thanks again!
May be you could use your measuring tool to find the one good reed in a Vandoren box and repackage it and sell it for more ;->
Best,
-Sylvain
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-07-24 01:18
EUREKA !!!
There already has been interest in the concept - to better standardize reeds by a more scientific means. Alas, I think that the "person" (we can not be sure of the gender) who puts the one good reed in the box has a union contract to do their job and, --- there are not enough good reeds from the manufacturing side to supplement each box with more than just one! On the other hand perhaps the selection process could be used to cull the potentially good ones into a super select sub-brand at tremendous cost. We however already pay a large hidden cost - by rejecting bad reeds from a box - and where-O-where would all the other reeds go?
The Doctor
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Author: beecee
Date: 2002-07-24 02:42
Why not have our own informal test. How about we all take one reed and oil as directed and see how long they last. Compare this value with the average life of a reed not oiled. We can have one post where each can post there results.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-07-24 02:59
Hey fellow players - as Mark often points out, and my two cents worth too - you have to have a statistically valid comparison in which you control the known variables - e.g. what oil, what source, how much, how long, what control group, what type of reed, played for how long, who judges - you or an unbiased observer, how many reeds, what type of player, what type of mouthpiece, etc, etc. As you can see when dealing with an art form there are too many variables and few good objective measurement tools. I will try most anything on a whim but to convince the woodwind community one needs hard core statistical proof and good experimental design. This is my stock-and-trade, but I often yearn for a little more talent than brains.
The Doctor
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-07-24 03:49
um
i seem to remember Greg Smith bathing his reeds in Olive oil.... (i could be wrong) i tried it for a while (as did my old teacher)... Mr Smith, are you out there? Is my memory correct and do you still do this?
donald
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-07-24 05:09
Jack: Better to start with a concept and wind up with a theory....
It would seem to me that some of the "stuff" in the magic formula seems intuitively wrong. Almond extract, with its very high ethanol content, doesn't sound to me like a great way to keep anything moist.
It does pop into my mind, however, that Olive Oil with a very substantial admixture of Vitamin E oil (tocopherols are excellent antioxidants) would likely be quite slow to develop a rancid aroma.
Anyway, please forgive me for not wishing to stick a reed's worth of sodium bicarbonate in my mouth.
Anyway, I think I'll wait for The Doctor's Celebrated Reed Oil.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-07-25 03:36
nzdonald wrote:
"i seem to remember Greg Smith bathing his reeds in Olive oil.... (i could be wrong) i tried it for a while (as did my old teacher)... Mr Smith, are you out there? Is my memory correct and do you still do this?"
donald
========================================================
No. And I never have.
Gregory Smith
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-07-25 16:57
Oiling reeds . . .
In addition to other possible benefits, would it stop them from squeaking? ;+))
Todd W(D40).
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-07-26 00:34
Todd . . . that was priceless. To think that the thread went on this long before someone came up with the obvious pun . . .
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Author: Marty Marks
Date: 2002-07-26 05:32
I have experimented with oil impregnated reeds. I tried olive oil, peanut oil, and various oils from my cupboard. I couldn't say how long they lasted because I found them unplayable. I did find a substance which when disolved and applied to the reed prevented the reed from absorbing too much moisture and becoming waterlogged without changing the tonal charactaristic of the reed in any adverse way. It seemed that a good reed which was treated would last twice as long as an untreated reed. The only scientific tests which I could perform was a daily measuring of treated reeds compared to untreated reeds with a micrometer. There was virtually no change in
the thickness of the treated reed along the vamp compared to an untreated reed which varied greatly from one days playing to the next. It was stabilized.
The problem I found testing my solution is that no two reeds are the same. Some reeds last through weeks of heavy playing and others die after an hour. Comparing reeds from the same box is meaningless because we do not know how they relate to one another. Are they manufactured from the same batch of cane? Can we be certain the cane used even came from the same location? Run a light through any
reed. Can you find another with exactly the same structure.
Lately I've been playing on plastic. Almost every one I put on my mouthpiece is the same as the last one.
Marty Marks
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Author: pete
Date: 2002-07-26 17:29
Best solution is to put them in vodka this preserves them cleans them,the second bassoonist with the CBSO swears by it.
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Author: Josh Schultze
Date: 2002-07-26 21:34
Under the recommendation of an old russian clarinetist, several years ago I used the following method. I would soak a box of V12 3.5 reeds in olive oil for 3 days. Then I would remove them and put them on paper towels and cover them with paper towels for a day. Then I would blot them individually and very thoroughly and place them on paper towels for another day. Then I stored them in small cardboard boxes for for at least 2 years.
I didn't do these to all of my reeds but to at least 10 boxes.
I have been playing these oiled reeds for about a year and a half. The key difference between oiled reeds and non oiled reeds is that the oiled ones last longer. I haven't kept track precisely, however since I use both oiled and non-oiled reeds I notice that the non-oiled reeds die first. I cycle through 12 reeds using one reed per sitting. The oiled ones last longer because I the non-oiled ones are the first to die. The reeds that are oiled last long enough for the reeds to get discolored from play. The non-oiled reeds don't last long enough to get significantly discolored.
But I haven't continued with the oiling process for one main reason: the mess. The reeds have to be dried like french fries. All the paper towels and the blotting dry of reeds is too much effort. For about a week my desk would look like McDonalds cafeteria.
I'm fairly lazy about reeds in general, so quick intervals of soaking and then a couple of light sandings throughout the life of the reed is about as much that I can handle.
So while these oiled reeds do last longer, I don't think the amount of time, papertowels, and the mess can justify having a reed for a little longer.
More essential I believe for long lasting reeds is rotating reeds and ageing the reeds. If the reeds are stored for several years, they always last longer than using a box immediately.
Good Luck,
Josh
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-07-27 03:53
Some of you may recall that several months ago, I bought a few boxes of Roy J. Maier "Signature" reeds through eBay allegedly from a music store that went belly-up. Back in the 1950s, these were among my favorite reeds. But they have not been produced in many years (they were distributed by Selmer). These "new old stock" reeds play very well and seem as if they may last my lifetime (which is, of course, perhaps nothing too special).
Regards,
John
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-28 22:15
reviewing an old one. :D
any news on this topic?
yesterday i was opening an old box of reeds (from 92), which i was going to break in and use.
i started to use one, but it felt "dried" and unvibrant. probably becase i have a cold and my saliva isnt what it is suppose to be. so i putted them in a glas of water. then a friend came to visit and i forgotted the reeds for a couple of hours.
when i came back, the reeds was very wet so i putted them on a papertowel to dry them for a while.
i doesn't have much patience and after 5 min i started to play the one i had tried before(i mark all my reads with numbers) and it played great!
is it good for the reeds to do like oboe/bassoonplayers do? having the once one are going to play in a glas of water until they are soaked?
since reeds are made of wood. and everything else made of wood is oiled. isn't it a good idea to oil the reeds now and then? just putting them in a glas of oil for an hour or so...
advantages/disadvantages??
any suggestions on oils? peanut? almond? olive?
the docs boreoil??? (maybe buying one of those large boxes!!!)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-10-29 08:17
wow i was just thinking about oiling reeds, and whala someone revives a good thread.
urban legend
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-29 10:50
Oiling reeds because they are "wood" would seem to make sense but I've never done it so I don't know if it helps or not. A few years ago I treated a couple of reeds with polyurethane and a couple with acrylic water base varnish using similar reasoning. I still play them occasionally but the acrylic treated ones tend to want to stick to the mouthpiece where the ligature presses. I've drawn no conclusions.
Bob Draznik
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-29 22:16
today i did some sort of test.
first i took 2 reeds that was starting to sound squeaky and dried/dying?
it was reeds that originally i had to place them very low on the mpc because they where a bit hard. and then after a couple of weeks i had to move them higher and higher because of the wear and tear.
and now i had them placed as far out as it goes and they still Sounded to soft. but the resistance was okey.
do i describe the reeds feel okey? or is it confusing? anyhow...
and i placed them in olive oil for about 3 hours.
when i played them again, both of them felt like they where back on the track. im not saying it felt like a new reed or so. but it was... smoother? more ring and stability to the tone(and definitely the physical reed itself). and the dried feeling was gone. replaced by... something that felt filled. or moistureish.
(my god. its really difficult to describe how something feels! aspecially in a language one doesn't control properly.)
anyone who has any comments on this?
is olive oil a good oil or will it go rancid? anyone knows a better one?
i really doesn't know if it was such an great effect on the reeds as i felt today. maybe its just a placebo-effect. but i'm shure going to try again tomorrow!!
i feel that it has to be good to oil reeds because it is some sort of oil in them from the start(atleast i think so...) and that has to dissapear when playing on them. just as the oil in the clarinet. and when its gone, the reed has to be affected in some way...
anyone who has done any research? doc? (btw. i have tried the grenad.oil. superb! it works -and smells- great)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-29 22:33
Once absorbed by wood, a good plant oil does not get rancid (at least I've never experienced this).
Whether this is a placebo effect or not is - IMHO - not relevant. If you think that method prolongs the life of a good reed, why not? It must work for you and no one else.
I'll certainly try that next time (unless the reed gets shredded to smithereens during the final fff) a reed gets tired.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-29 22:58
I tried it yesterday on a reed that has a consistant chirp. One reed; not scientific, but...
My result was that it did make a difference. Not better or worse- it went from one kind of slightly bad reed to another- but there was a change. The chirp was gone and it had a better sound, but it became a bit stiff.
This is an interesting experement and with experience I expect I'd get better results.
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Author: Lee
Date: 2007-10-31 02:31
My high school band director once said that storing reeds in a mixture of grain alcohol and eucalyptus oil would make them last longer. Tried it and did not fine any difference. The director was a trombone player but claimed that some of the clarinet players he played with in the 40s did it.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-31 13:44
oh.
well. as far as i know. alcohol cleans. and oil preserves. so it may be a working mixture.
but i would suspect those two to eliminate eachother.
but who knows. i could work. :D
an update on my testreeds.
they still seems to be fine, no rancidness or anything.
this could be just my imagination, but i think they doesn't warp as much as before! :D that is certainly good news to me! all my reeds seems to warp!! :D
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Author: clockwiser
Date: 2007-11-02 15:03
Doesn't the oil have effect the way the reed vibrate? Will it make it better?
I will certainly give it a try!
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-11-02 15:41
from Anton Weinberg site:
"REED FEED is just pure magic; try it, you will be suprised. No nut traces: made from pure hydrophilic flower oils."
flowers? sounds nice. and hopefully it tastes good. :D
i'm going with the oliveoil "with a taste of Basil". (great taste!!
the main reaction i have seen from the reeds is that they doesn't feel dried out.
tested on 8 different reeds. none of the speciall characteristics of each single reed was changed in any way. except that the "shrill"/dried tone was gone and it was a little harder to play (probably because the oil expands the wood to its natural size. or something like that!)
the reeds also doesn't warp as much. still warping. but less than before!!!
i suspect that the vibrations are affected. but on the reeds that i have tried so far, which where all dry and shrill, it only made it better.
have to dry on a reed i just broke in...
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2007-11-04 19:46
Wow.....this is an old thread! Unbelievable how far back many of us go for information.
I've tried "wiping" my reeds with pure almond oil.....let them sit for about an hour...then sand the front and back smooth....let them dry for an hour or so....then soak them water for about five minutres prior to play. Aside from the sweet taste of the almond oil.....I can't tell any difference. I've used the same 2 reeds for about a week.......I'll get back to you in 50 years and let you know it they're still in use.....
JG
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-11-04 20:10
i dont think just one hour is enough to make any difference. but its worth a shot! :D
to add some stuff to the list of experiments, i have tried the difference between cold (15 degrees celcius) and warm (bodytemperature) oil. and there's seems to be a difference in how well the reeds soak it in.
the reeds with cold oil is now after a couple of days really hard work allmost back to their former dried state.
but the reeds with the warmer oil still behaves similar to how they did after the oiling process. (not the same as after oiling because of the ware and tare.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-05 22:48
Is it advisable to use oily reeds on an ebonite mouthpiece?
Some oils and greases will perish rubber, and could cause potential harm to an expensive (priceless or precious as most are irreplaceable) mouthpiece.
And as vegetable oils can become rancid when they oxidise, they won't exactly be all that flavoursome.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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