 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-11 20:08
What makes and models would you recomend for a metal clarinet? I'm looking to get a horn that has a tone closer to the Sop. sax. The larger the bore the better. Thanks.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-07-11 20:37
Metal clarinets will always sound like clarinets and never anything at all like a sax.
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Author: Brittany
Date: 2002-07-11 20:53
I've never even heard of a metal clarinet. Do they have a better tone than a plastic or a wood one?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-07-11 23:24
The Conns with the gold washed bell are reported to be pretty good jazz horns also.
Dee's right about it sounding like a clarinet . . . it will.
But I couldn't believe the volume I got out of a Silver King with a Vandoren 5JB mp!
And Brittany . . . metal clarinets were popular 50-75 yrs ago. Most of them aren't much good except for a novelty. They were poor, marching band clarinets. I'd take a Yamaha 20 or a Vito V40 over most of them for everyday playing - especially for a younger student. Some of the models mentioned above do have a special appeal for jazz . . . not to mention that they look SO COOL . . . and presentation does count for something. Add to that the rarity, novelty, and nostalgia factors, and a decent metal clarinet is worth having in your arsenal!
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-07-11 23:54
There were some very good metal clarinets made actually. There is the Haynes sterling silver, the Selmer sterling silver, and then there is the King mentioned above as well as the Silva-Bet by Bettony. A lot depends on the condition (previous treatment by owners).
<a href="http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org">jbutler</a>
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-12 00:43
Let me clerify a bit, I'm looking for a more metalic sound, a sort of ping/ring in the high frequency that the sop sax has. I guess I'm a bit of an old ball in that I use a close tip stiff reed combo on my Boosey horn. With the metal clarinet I'm thinking of leaning towards very open and very soft, and take it to extremes. I'm sure I'd disgust a few clarinet purists, but I'm sure I can get the sound I'm looking for. In my head I hear it as Steve Lacy playing a clarinet. If only I could choose the notes like Mr. Lacy....
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-12 00:50
Ok... I know where I've heard it. Woody Allen in Wild Man Blues. He visits the Buffet factory to have his clarinet worked on, they hand him a metal clarinet and the punch if amazing. Very in your face. He wanted to buy it but they refused. It was surely an Albert though. I saw somewhere on this BB he was nominated for worst tone, so there you go, I happen to dig it. That ol spice of life thing.
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-07-12 04:20
Jack...
SILVER KING as far as I'm concerned....just got one completely overhauled and I'll tell you....I know what you're looking for. this things sings! A real jazz machine. Contact me aaat my e-mail address and we can discuss.
I play mine with a Pomarico crystal MPC and it is as good as my Buffet R-13 in terms of smoothness....but far surpasses it in "brightness and projection". Shoot, I'm using it as my "main' horn now. give me a e-mail and we'll not bore everyone else.
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-12 13:52
In looking for a "big-bore" metal cl, use a caliper to find one of .590" [15.0 mm] or larger at top of upper joint, not the neck/barrel, [a "jazz horn"]. As Fred said, play it with a very open mp and soft reed. That's about as close as you can get to a soprano/alto sax sound with a cylindrical-bore tube IMHO. Don
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-07-13 19:51
The best recommendation I can give for a metal clarinet is to make it into a lamp.......
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-13 20:46
lynn wrote:
>
> The best recommendation I can give for a metal clarinet
> is to make it into a lamp.......
That's too bad. You need to widen your outlook ...
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-07-13 20:48
>>That's too bad. You need to widen your outlook ...<<
No, Mark, in my business, I've never met a metal clarinet I've liked that didn't have a cord attached to it. If I can't give it to a child, it's not worth owning, period.
Lynn
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-13 20:50
Then you need to widen the areas you're looking in. There are plenty of very playable, in tune metal clarinets out there.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-07-13 21:25
The best recommendation I can give for a Lynn is to make it into a cigar-store statue....
Regards,
John
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-07-13 23:05
lynn wrote:
>
> No, Mark, in my business, I've never met a metal clarinet I've
> liked that didn't have a cord attached to it. If I can't give
> it to a child, it's not worth owning, period.
> Lynn
Since the large majority of metal clarinets were student grade (and low quality to boot), it's unlikely that you've ever seen or heard one of the intermediate and pro metal clarinets that were made. The reputation of the latter two categories was tarnished by the tons of junk made and sold to unsuspecting students. The resulting attitude (as reflected in your posts) killed off all metal clarinets.
Such a judgement would be just like saying the Buffet Greenline (a plastic horn despite the sawdust filler) is no good because of the absolute plastic junk in clarinet shape that comes out of China and India, etc.
I have two very nice Noblet metal clarinets (metal) that are the equal of any intermediate clarinets produced during the same time period.
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-07-14 02:47
So Dee, you would sooner give a metal clarinet to a child than, say, an older refurbished wood clarinet of the same caliber? And do you think they stay in good condition better than that of a wooden horn? Meaning they can withstand children? LOL I've played some metals that worked better than others but one that played well....
Personally, I don't care for the Greenline's sound, either. It's just not inviting.
Lynn
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Author: madvax
Date: 2002-07-14 04:40
lynn wrote:
> you would sooner give a metal clarinet to a child than, say,
> an older refurbished wood clarinet of the same caliber
In some cases, yes.
I realize you are broad-brushing all metal clarinets as poor players, but what you don't realize is that, just like wooden clarinets, some metal clarinets play better than others.
I would have no trouble letting a student play a metal clarinet, or any material clarinet, as long as it was a decent player.
lynn wrote:
> And do you think they stay in good condition better than
> that of a wooden horn? Meaning they can withstand children?
I would argue that metal is far superior to wood for withstanding abuse. I don't recall ever seeing a crack in a metal clarinet.
There is an amusing post in the Sneezy database somewhat similar to this discussion. Here is the related piece of that post:
> Regarding Plastic oboes:
> When I moved to Philadelphia in 1978
> there was a young man in Mr. Moennig's shop having his plastic
> oboe worked on. Mr. Moennig was working on the half hole to
> improve the ascending slurs from A2 to High D and G2 to High D.
> He referred to this procedure as the High D response
> modification. Finally Mr. Moennig finished the job and had
> the young oboist to try the high D and it popped right out.
> After the customer left I leaned over to Mr. Moennig and
> asked him about the plastic oboe. I said that guy must not be
> a very good player if he is using a plastic oboe.
>
> Mr. Moennig exclaimed, "Are you crazy? Do you know who that
> was? That young boy was Dick Woodhams! He took de Lancie's
> place in the Philadelphia Orchestra this year! He likes to
> play and he feels that the plastic is much more consistent
> than wood. And most important of all, Maestro Ormandy likes
> the tone as well."
>
> From that day on I never judged another player for using
> a plastic horn. If it works for you, Great!
> Thank you, Alvin Swiney
The complete post is at:
http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1999/05/000635.txt
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-07-14 04:54
lynn wrote:
>
> So Dee, you would sooner give a metal clarinet to a child
> than, say, an older refurbished wood clarinet of the same
> caliber? And do you think they stay in good condition better
> than that of a wooden horn? Meaning they can withstand
> children? LOL I've played some metals that worked better than
> others but one that played well....
>
> Personally, I don't care for the Greenline's sound, either.
> It's just not inviting.
>
> Lynn
Caliber and condition being equal, I would give a child a metal clarinet instead of a wooden one because it can stand more abuse than the wooden one can. It is the same reason that today's student clarinets are made of plastic.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-14 14:49
I'm inclined to agree that your typical metal clarinet today would not be the most appropriate horn for a child to attempt to learn on.
Still, some of us mature players enjoy them for various reasons. To my knowledge I don't know that any are being manufactured today which makes them a scarce resource. I have one that plays and sounds quite well and another one that doesn't. Personally I rank making lamps out of any clarinet just a tad above keeping one's embalmed mum on display in the family room.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-07-14 15:57
Bob wrote:
>
> I'm inclined to agree that your typical metal clarinet
> today would not be the most appropriate horn for a child to
> attempt to learn on.
> Still, some of us mature players enjoy them for various
> reasons. To my knowledge I don't know that any are being
> manufactured today which makes them a scarce resource. I have
> one that plays and sounds quite well and another one that
> doesn't. Personally I rank making lamps out of any clarinet
> just a tad above keeping one's embalmed mum on display in the
> family room.
The typical plastic clarinet would also not be the most appropriate horn for a child to attempt to learn on. Outside the Big Four (Leblanc, Selmer, Buffet, and Yamaha), they are generally junk. Also any old, beat up horn is not appropriate for a child to learn on.
It's not the material people. It's the design quality, manufacturing quality, and how well it is taken care of that make a difference. Children need sturdy durable horns. Wood isn't it. Either metal or plastic would both be good but unfortunately metal ones were killed off by the preponderance of junk horns. However if new, quality metal horns were available today, the plastic would probably win out simply because plastic horns are lighter in weight. This is important when you are not very big yet.
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Author: piano90
Date: 2002-07-14 21:30
Harry Bettoney makes pretty good models. The company is know for their metal clarinets.
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-15 20:18
Lynn, thanks for mutating my post. I'm not looking to give a metal clarinet to a child!?! I'm also not looking for negative reactions. I'm seeking solutions, the glass is half full right. Thank you for those who offerd good advice, I'll be keeping an eye out for some of the makes mentioned. It's a good thing they go for cheap on Ebay, though I have spyed an OH'd Silver King that was in the 300.00 range as well as a strange Conn that was the thickness of a wood clarinet with gold keys, last I saw it was over 500.00. If anyone happens to run across a Silver King at a good price please let me know, that would just be outstanding.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-16 14:56
Lots of luck , Jack, but we'll probly buy it ourselves. Liked the mutating comment lots...
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-07-18 02:22
Lynne:
Yes, my kid had to use a metal clarinet in school. Sure, I could have given him my R13 or my LeBlanc Symphony III. He wouldn't have sounded much, if at all, better. I would have sounded much worse when it got lost. (Plenty more metal clarinets on eBay.) I used to take an old metal Revere camping and boating. Come to think of it, if I had taken two, in a pinch I could have made an anchor. However, I would use a wooden clarinet for a lamp. the silver plating on metal clarinets tarnishes too quickly.
Jack
FYI the "pro" metal Conn has a very narrow bore. The Conn pan american has a larger bore, but I don't particulary care for it. I think the Silver Kings & Silva Bets (Bettoney) have the largest bores. Many metal clarinets do not break in the middle, so figuring out the bore size would be difficult. I have a metal boehm buffet, and IMHO it has a relatively sweet sound.
Regardless, there is a broad consensus on the board that wood, plastic & metal clarinets can all be produced to the highest standards and that the material makes ABSOLUTELY NO contribution to the tone (unless you bang it with something.) Try lots of mouthpiece/reed combinations on lots of horns, and sooner or later you will find what you want. I don't think that there is any recipe that allows one player to sound like another.
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-18 04:00
Good points Jim. Like any other info there seems to be conflicting observations. Some notice an edge with metal clarinets and some say they sound the same.....your right I'll just have to try various combos. I have read that the Conn pro line has many inovations and that the register break is very easy to work. The allure is to great and I'll have to search one of these out, as well as the Silva Bet or Silver King.
BTW the only clarinetist I would ever want to sound just like would be Artie, but I think that has more to do with his tonality vs. his tone. Lacy is perhaps the greatest horn player I have heard (Subjective) he can make his Sop Sax sound just like a bowed sting among other things. Amazing to say the least.
Metal Clarinets to be continued.......
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-07-19 03:04
End of line........at least for now. I bought a Silver King for 250.00 on ebay. Used the buy it now function. It needs an OH but I'll polish and replace the pads myself. Not the best price I know but, to be honest I'm a bit tierd of bidding on Ebay. To many snippers and there seems to be a trend for metal horns right now. There are two Conn pro's up right now, one was over 500.00 had been OH'd and a fix up for over 300.00 with several days left.
Thank you Jim for the bore size info!! As much as I'd like to jump in and swim with the French, perfume and all, I think I'm a big bore person. My girlfriend will attest to that....oh thats bad, sorry. The Conn pro will have to waite. Thanks again!!
One more thing, this seller states that there are two H N White Silver Kings. He states that a true Silver King is stamped "Silver King" on the bell which is solid silver along with the neck the rest is plated, this is the horn Lester Young used, and there is the H N White Silver King that is a down grade? I would think it's the same horn less maybe the solid siler part and a few years in manufacturing....any thoughts?
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