 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2002-07-16 14:19
Hi Everyone,
First, I'd like to say that the Zorro postings were intersting; they revealed much and were worth the effort to read each and every word. But I digress!
I want to start a new thread though and it involves a BIS key; I have searched past posts and found little on the subject. As a very experienced sax player and teacher (I know, the shame of it), I have always missed the handy BIS key that saxophones have for the Bb (middle and upper). For those that are not familiar with the arrangement, the first finger of the left hand can slide down and make the B a Bb (this is not an appropriate chromatic fingering though).
I recently purchased a Santy Runyon BIS key that attaches to the D/A key and can be used by slipping the first finger down when needed. There is a set screw than attaches the "device." This fingering has much use in any flat key and I will be working on it in the next few weeks to try to exploit the possibilities.
My questions for all interested BB members are:
1. Have you tried a Runyon or similar addition BIS key?
2. Should a BIS key be added to clarinets?
Hank
PS If you want to become meaningless and meander a bit (hope Zorro is not reading this), I'm always looking for others that like Portnoy mouthpieces (I've been playing one for 30 years) and Master Model clarinets (I have two but prefer my Series 9).
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Author: William
Date: 2002-07-16 15:05
As a fairly accomplished clarinetist (who also plays saxophones) I have never understood why clarinet manufacturers have never added the "bis-key" option to any of their models. There are so many passages in the clarinet literature library that would be made easier to play with the addition of this little key. Glad you brought this issue up!!!
BTW, I know and have played with Fred Hemke, and I find no "shame" in his teaching or playing. In fact, I am envious and humbled by his flawless technique and musical artistry with which he plays his instrument. I realize that you were attempting humor, but (IMNOHO), the "day has come" to give the saxophone and sax artists the credit they deserve.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-07-16 15:45
Hank -
A bis key is a very simply addition -- just a nib soldered on the pad cup between the left index and middle fingers. (Most oboes have them, though the use is different.)
This works on the sax because the holes are so large. On the clarinet, though, the bis clarion Bb is quite sharp, and the chalumeau Eb is impossibly sharp. The standard "1 and 1" fork fingering is in tune on the Bb (though still sharp on the low Eb) because the right index finger hole and pad are down. Without that extra "shading" below, the intonation is too far out to be usable.
It's easy enough to try. You can probably position your left index finger to cover its hole and also press the pad cup. If that's too hard, you can press the cup with a right-hand finger.
A possible mechanism would be a lever pressed by the left index fingertip that pushed the pad cup cown and also covered part of the left ring finger hole, but it would take a lot of fingertip movement. As I recall, there was such a design, operated by a vertical 5th trill key for the side of the right index finger, that was described in The Clarinet about a year ago.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-07-16 16:10
In the middle 50s, the "bis" key was commented on by Glen Johnston, a legendary clarinet player, mouthpiece fixer, and tuner. His comment to me was that he seriously tried it but found that he sometimes inadvertently touched the key when he shouldn't, causing an error in playing. On the saxophone, I find that the "bis" key is so convenient, however, that I must practice the use of the side key to maintain fluency with side Bbs. By the way, Mr. Johnston disliked the 1-1 fingering on the saxophone a lot and even went so far as to disconnect it on his saxophones, which he also played so well. Good luck!
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Author: John Moses
Date: 2002-07-16 18:11
Great idea, it should be on all clarinets.
I had Jimmy Yan, in NYC, put one on my Bass, and it makes those tough spots lots easier.
I spoke to Buffet 20 years ago, in Paris, about making the key available as an option. It feel on deaf ears.
In any case, Jimmy Yan can do the job for you , if you're in the NYC area.
Good luck,
JJM
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-16 23:10
Duh, I'm thinking I have one or more fingering charts(Bb clar) that refer to one or more of the trill keys as "bis" ..What gives??
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2002-07-17 01:46
Umm, I'm trying to figure out what the term "bis" means or stands for. I know what kind of key you are all talking about, though. We do have a key like that on clarinet, but between the left second and third keys, rather than the first and second like on sax. I don't play sax enough and so don't use my bis key like I should; I use my side Bb too much and even the awful (on sax) 1 + 1.
So what does "bis" mean?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-17 02:30
Bis is from the French meaning "second" in this case (second, or alternate key). Originally from Latin meaning "twice".
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-17 03:20
There are several interesting posts on the Klarinet Archives here under "bis" that even quote a 1992 catalogue price ($18.00) for a Bis key a child could install with a screwdriver--along with a very illuminating section covering various fingerings that are made possible by the modification. I can't wait until somebody tries it and posts some more data.
Dave S? Should I have one put on my Bass? Send it back to you? Ha!
Bob A
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-17 03:39
Very interesting, I also am a cl/sax doubler, and, via repair-adjustment, make sure the 1 and 1 works well and "tune" it as well as possible [it is very good on Selmers!] by the rise of the associated pads. The 1&1 is highly convenient on my bass, and, back in the dark ages, playing "In the Mood" on alto, it was much better than the Bis. To each his own fingerings, I guess! Don
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Author: Jim Mougey
Date: 2002-07-17 10:31
Hank: Did your teaching years include a stay at Huron,Ohio? If so, I think we met, I was teaching at Norwalk and doing the playhouse in the summer.
Jim Mougey
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2002-07-17 11:00
Hi Jim,
Correct, in Huron, OH many moons ago. I'll send you a separate email.
HRL
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Author: Dan Borlawsky
Date: 2002-07-17 12:19
I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Tom Ridenour (sp?) developed an accessory bis key for clarinet maybe 20-25 years ago. Anyone out there use one of these?
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-07-17 16:42
Quijote --
At last, something that's not "total crap"! ;+))
Todd W.
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-07-17 21:54
Quijote --
My apologies if you are NOT the Quijote who wrote:
Thread: Special Amati Kraslice Clarinet
Quote: ". . . total crap."
Thread: jodyjazz mpc
Quote: ". . . pretty crappy . . ."
Thread: Amati Clarinet
Quote: "Amati's are crap."
Thread: Buffet Saxophones
Quote: ". . . pure crap . . ."
Thread: Drying up spray from BG
Quote: ". . . total crap."
Thread: Bestler and Maxtone clarinets
Quote: ". . . absolute crap . . ."
Thread: Chinese Clarinets
Quote: ". . . R crap."
Thread: Legere Reeds
Quote: ". . . total crap"
OTOH, if you are that Quijote, res ipsa loquitor.
ALL IN FUN, Q.
Todd W
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-17 22:18
Hey Tod, well done, --Or as the old Romans used to say, "Satis verborum, satis eloquentiae, sapiente parum"!
Bob A
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-07-18 06:34
LOL !!! @ Bob Arney - you're a most cunning linguist!
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-18 14:21
diz...I see you're from the old school and shall say no more
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Author: William
Date: 2002-07-18 14:47
I am contacting he Runyon people about getting one of their bis keys for trial--I'll let you know how it works for me. Later, gators.
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-07-18 20:30
Mark --
Sorry for stirring up a hornet's nest -- or at least one hornet. I've often contended that attempting humor via e-mail is very difficult, even with the use of neticons. I guess I've just proved my point. I did think that with a screen name of "Quijote" the poster might have a sense of the absurd; apparently I'M the one tilting at windmills.
Quijote --
Sorry if I've offended you. You certainly have the right to your opinions (even that one about me); I was not questioning that, only gently teasing you about the way you express them. And that may have been unfair, too, since in scrolling through your posts, I did find a number of them in which you did give reasons for your thoughts on a subject.
I'd hate to see you booted from this site because of irritation with me. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not offended and certainly bear you no ill will. Peace, or at least truce.
Todd W.
PS: My Latin is rudimentary at best. (Bob A, I have no idea what you said.) I was going by Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition (as referenced on a web site), but they, or more likely I, may have gotten it wrong
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-19 01:15
Tod, we've gone this road with Q before--over the same phrase. What I stated then was two phrases that spin off of "Satis". "Satis verborum" enough of words--meaning "let's get the show on the road and show a little action" and "Satis eloquentiae, sapientiae parum", less modern version than "Total Crap--"enough eloquence, too little wisdom."
Bob A
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2002-07-19 01:46
Funny how all this began with me asking two simple questions about a BIS key.
HRL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-19 01:55
No, Hank, it's just that some people go overboard sometimes. It had nothing to do with your question, everything to do with 'net personality.
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Author: Milklos Brabec
Date: 2002-07-19 12:40
Many eastern european players I know have had marginal success with the full boehm with articulated G# C# keys, and yet ,,,,,they are most distrustful of any extrra mechanism. At the Prague conservatory the plain boehm is mandatory but, some players do use added gizmos...whether or not the BIS means a more expensive instrument would factor into whether or not it is accepted, or prohibitive due to costliness. Maybe a Buffet or Selmer rep could enlighten us to production costs? MiklosB>>>>
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Author: William
Date: 2002-07-19 14:27
I ordered my bis-key attachment from Runyon yesterday--cost, about $25.00. As promised earlier, I'll work with it for a while and then let you all know how it works for me. Downside--if I like it, I'll need to buy three more to fit all my working clarinets. What else is money for, but to spend on new clarinet gizmos and related support junk?????
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-07-19 16:39
Res quas vir unus despicet, alius amabit.
(Things that one man hates, another will love.)
OK, so my Latin's a little rusty.
I personally never used the bis-key when I played saxophone. I see it's use, but I just never cared for it. If I had one for my clarinet it might just get in the way.
OTOH, I'd probably find some way to get used to it on the clarinet...
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-19 21:10
David, you said--in part--"If I had one for my clarinet it might just get in the way." Is that comment related to hand span size? In other words it might not even be practical for an "effer" but would be for a Alto or Bass because of the increased "reach" area? Comment when you get it.
Bob A
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-07-20 22:47
I just might get one for my contra... it's be easy to rig. If I do get it I'll send my thoughts on it.
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