 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ella
Date: 2002-07-10 20:23
I'm purchasing a new R13 and I'm not sure whether to invest in silver-plated keys or nickel. Nickel is considerably cheaper. The local music store workers claim that silver is more maleable to an individual's hands and longer lasting. However, they do have a good motivation to sell the most expensive product possible. Some help, please?
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Author: Gretchen
Date: 2002-07-10 20:32
I have nickel keys on my Bb clarinet, and Silver on my A. I've had my Bb for about 5 years now, and the only real problem with it, is that if you have acidic hands (like i do), then some of the nickel on some of the keys wear off...but nothing else happens to the clarinet. On my A, (I've had it for about 2 years now), the silver stays on. That's the only difference for me...although the silver keys aren's so slippery...sometimes i slip on the nickel. But Nickel is perfectly fine if you're looking for a cheaper instrument.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-07-10 22:49
Ella,
"Silver" might be a little less slippery to the touch and could be a bit more durable than nickel (depending on the acidity of your sweat), but I think the option is really more of a money-maker for the seller than anything else.
There's no real silver in the plating of Buffet clarinets; even if there were, I think the extra cost compared to nickel plating would be negligible due to the very small amount of silver involved.
I understand the real money in a good plating job goes into the labour involved in the preparation of the receiving surface, not the type of metal involved.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-07-10 23:54
Ella (and others),
Please disregard my statement that there's no silver in the plating on Buffet clarinets, I was confusing the composition of the key metal itself with the plating metal.
Ken
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-11 12:58
The only thing I can add is that some people are allergic to nickel
but I have never heard any such thing with silver.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-11 13:47
"silver is more maleable to an individual's hands...."
Silver is more maleable, yes, but that has got nothing to do with the users's hands, and little to do with the choice of plating. I think the guy was using the engineering term as a sales buzz word without the slightest idea of what he was talking about.
Silver may tarnish to grey or black in sulphurous environments.
However it can be restored relatively easily.
By contrast nickel tarnishes, even from the fumes of some plastics,including polyurethane and other materials/adhesives used to make instrument cases, to a yucky, dull, rough off-white which is very difficult to restore. This problem has hit Fox bassoons and Jupiter saxes, and clarinets.
Also, with the help of corrosive perspiration it pits, often very deeeply into the base metal, and often caused the plating to flake off, resulting in even more severe pitting of the base metal. This type of corrosion is reasonably common and more severe and untreatable than anything I have seen associated with silver plating.
Having said that, some players strike it lucky and their nickel plating is not subjected to these corrosive influences.
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Author: Jim S.
Date: 2002-07-11 14:35
I have found that those spots on the nickel plating are not points of wear-through, but just discoloration, and can be removed with a little polish or perhaps just typing paper or 1200 grit paper.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2002-07-11 21:06
I prefer silver plated keys for this rigorously scientific, logical, thoroughly objective, well-considered and mathematically correct reason:
IT'S PRETTIER!
Warmer, richer looking, more lustrous.
BUT--it tarnishes. It abrades more easily--picks up scuff marks & stuff. But so what!!! You have to live with the horn without regret over "what might have been." So put a nickel-plated horn and a silver-plated horn next to each other, and tell me you like the nickel plate better. If you do, BUY IT!
cheers
Dou R
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Author: DougR
Date: 2002-07-11 21:30
One thing I forgot to add, though--always, always, always pick the horn that PLAYS BEST. I had three silver-plated R-13s to choose from and they were as different from each other as if they'd been different makes. Have fun!!!
cheers
Doug R
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-07-12 00:16
The new micro-mesh cloths do not scratch the silver key work. Get you one of these if you do decide to purchase the clarinet with the silver keywork. It will help it stay looking nice longer. Even soft flannel can leave minute scratch marks.
>a href="http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org">jbutler</a>
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-07-12 16:11
Jim S, the spots you write of must be very different from the ones I regularly see. Sure, their conspicuousness can be redcuced by buffing/polishing but there is still a pin hole right through the plating, with an ever deepening and expanding pit. But I suppose it can be stabilized somewhat by sealing the metal form the corrosive perspiration and vapours. This is what happens for a while with buff soap.
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Author: carmen izzo
Date: 2002-07-12 18:25
Vampires are allergic to silver. . .But that is the only downside to that material that i know of when compared to nickel. I think, key finish should be secondary to playing quality.
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Author: James
Date: 2002-07-12 23:27
Something weird....... When i played on my old buffet r13 with nickle keys, i wore the plating within a month. Yet on my nickle plated A concerto, the plating is still there and I have had it for four years. My new r13 has silver keys. They are just prettier and I know i won't wear through the silver. But here is what i say for you. Go through all the R13s! There could be an awesome R13 that has nickle plated keys. It just turned out for me that the clarinet w/ silver was the best at that given time and day. Don't ever turn down a nickle plated horn just because the keys are nickle. Keep all you options open.
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-07-13 19:58
When we were out at the Buffet factory last year, my husband tried several of each of the nickel and silver key horns. He wouldn't care what kind of keys it had, he was looking for the Horn. It turned out that almost all the nickels were nowhere near the quality of the others. Think Buffet might be putting a little more effort into the horns which have silver keys?
Lynn
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-13 20:48
lynn wrote:
>
> Think
> Buffet might be putting a little more effort into the horns
> which have silver keys?
Lynn
Nope.
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-07-14 02:50
Really? Why not? It did seem that way.....when you try out 25 of one and 25 of another (or numbers close to that) at a shot, and consistently the silver comes out better.....
Lynn
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-07-14 03:49
Luck of the draw. I've seen the assembly process on clarinets (not Buffet, but one of the other major manufacturers) - it's like the factory lines at GM.The keys are on little holders. The assembly person grabs a joint & assembles the keys to the clarinet, does a quick fitting, and passes it along. It ends up at final assembly where someone does a quick play test & adjustment and sends it to packing & shipping. It's done very fast - the person doing the final check/adjustment spends about the same amount of time on any clarinet that comes by - they don't look to see if it's nickel, silver, or whatever. They're running a business, trying to maximize output and minimize adjustments.
I used to work for GM/EDS. They make Chevy & GMC trucks on exactly the same lines, using the same people, on the same day, with the same parts.
Some people swear the GMCs are more carefully constructed and have better components than the Chevys.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-07-14 15:08
Can't comment on what allergies vampires might have but they are about as elusive as some of the opinions I'm reading. If one did discover that he or she had an allergy to nickel after purchasing a horn with nickel plated keys it would be rather disconcerting to say the least. The complete plating process is quite complicated and the plating metal is just part of the story. Yeh, I really think the GMCs are better...duh.
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Author: Vubble3
Date: 2013-07-05 04:35
Silver is more comfortable on your hands, believed to sound better than if it's plated on nickel, and better resale value
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2013-07-05 08:50
Dermatologists say nickel is the material that most frequently causes contact allergies. So I would suppose that players of nickel plated instruments suffer from itching eczemas on their hands more often than with silver coated instruments. Any experiences?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-07-05 09:45
Interestingly, here in Switzerland, Silver plate is the de facto standard, one rarely sees Nickel plate except from very cheap plastic student instruments - even the YCL-255 or E11 come in Silver only here.
Maybe it's a cultural (for lack of a better word) thing here, I haven't heard of any legal requirement re allergies and so. Sure thing is that a silverplated instrument looks worthier than with Nickel, especially after a few years of use.
Contact allergies with "nickel plus finger tips" aren't as common as with the skin of other parts of your body. Maybe fingers are more robust or more chemically desensibilised due to very varying work environments.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-05 09:55
Flautists are more sensitive to metal allergies when it comes to headjoint/lip plate plating - nickel plated headjoints being the worst for allergies, followed by silver. An easy remedy is to stick some tape on the lip plate which is in contact with the lower lip, or get a headjoint with a gold plated or even a solid gold lip plate if your budget allows.
A schoolfriend put her silver plated flute in for a service and was lent a nickel plated one while hers was in the shop. She soon had sores on her lower lip within days of playing the nickel plated flute, so the only thing she was doing differenty there was playing on a nickel plated flute which caused this reaction. I don't think Yamaha or any other makers offer nickel plated flutes anymore when they were once commonplace in the student flute market.
But silver is a much nicer metal in appearance and feel to nickel anyway - I'd go as far as saying I much prefer silver over gold as it's not as vulgar, what with all the 'bling' stuff going on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2013-07-05 13:21
"believed to sound better"
By whom?
Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. How, exactly, from an acoustical physics standpoint, does the plating on the keys affect a clarinet's sound?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-05 13:32
Another bit of marketing blurb that befouls so many makers!
Usually silver is plated over a nickel flash (the same thickness as nickel plate on most instruments which is around 3-5 microns) as nickel provides a nice smooth surface at a molecular level in comparison to plating straight onto a copper flash (which is fairy rough at a molecular level), although more and more companies are plating straight onto the copper flash. If the nickel flash is too thick (more than 5 microns), it causes havoc with reamers and other tools when finishing instruments as nickel is a very hard metal.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2013-07-05 13:41
pewd wrote:
> How, exactly, from an acoustical physics standpoint, does the plating on
> the keys affect a clarinet's sound?
>
Most people would agree with you that it doesn't. There is a certain amount of mythology at work here however. For the past few years Yamaha has been claiming that their proprietary "Hamilton" plating improves sound quality. There have even been reports from players testing out Yamaha clarinets that the ones with the special "Hamilton" plating consistently play better. That being said pretty much every time the topic has been discussed on this forum the general consensus has been that there is something different about the clarinets with the "Hamilton" plating other than the plating itself.
Unfortunately the only real way to tell for sure would be to have two sets of keys for the same instrument so that all variables other than the plating would be removed. This would be cost prohibitive and so far nobody has done it to my knowledge. The legend lives on for now I guess.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-07-05 14:06
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "mythology" of the sound differences. Though this probably falls into the category of differences in the sound of ligatures and whether you are a "believer" or a "non-believer."
This VERY topic came up for me at the Oklahoma Clarinet Symposium in talking to Patti Goodwin of Taplin-Weir. They had a fully gold plated Buffet R13 on display (all keys and posts). Apparently they offer the this as a plating option on ANY clarinet (of course the overhaul which is necessary comes in around $500 or so with the plating which is around a grand).
They say (though I didn't try this particular instrument) that this plating option makes the clarinet play a little "darker" (or with less vibrance if you prefer looking at it from the other side). Patti even clarified that if you don't want it to have quite as much affect on the sound, just don't plate the posts.
As I've said about ligatures, it does make some sense if you think about weight and density as factors in the ability of a material to vibrate (slower vibrations are lower, less "bright").
But this is only for "believers."
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-05 14:36
Marketing, marketing, marketing!
For the gullible, gullible, gullible.
For $$$ $$$ $$$!
It's a long, long way from the vibrating air column, which creates the sound.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2013-07-05 14:52
I doubt if the amount of gold on a plated instrument would amount to more than a gram or so. I can't see that having much of a damping effect on the vibrations in the clarinet, although it might damp the vibrations in the mind. I once worked on a machine that chemically removed gold from gold-plated computer circuit boards, and you had to strip a lot of boards to recover a gram of gold.
Tony F.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-07-05 20:53
The late Bob Gilbert of RDG told me that gold plated oboes sound better. I had a gold plated oboe at the time. The gold plating really felt better to the fingers than silver to me.
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Author: BobW
Date: 2013-07-05 21:48
When did Buffet start offering a choice between Nickel and Silver keys?
Before there was this option, where the keys nickel or silver?
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-05 22:33
The keys were mainly left as unplated nickel silver before they offered plating options - they may have offered solid silver keys as an option to unplated nickel silver. Selmer and Leblanc also did the same in leaving their keywork unplated.
I think they began plating clarinet keywork on a regular basis in the '60s in both nickel and silver plate. I've got two Buffet clarinets from the '60s - my Eb had unplated keys (until I had them all silver plated) and a full Boehm Bb with nickel plated keys.
Plating gives a more durable finish to the keywork as unplated nickel silver does wear over time. Some people wear out keywork more than others if they have particularly acidic perspiration - plating will withstand this to a degree, but once it starts to go through, the effect is more pronounced compared to unplated keywork as that will wear out smoothly instead of only where the plating is damaged leaving sharp edges on ring keys, etc.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-07-05 22:39)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-06 02:12
People with very acid sweat destroy unplated German silver within a few years. They obviously need plated keys. Al Gallodoro could play only on very heavily gold-plated keys.
Fortunately for me, my sweat is neutral. The keys on my R13s and pre-R13s are the same now as when they were new.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Vubble3
Date: 2013-07-06 04:36
Any reasons why clarinet keys are not plated with brass or maybe even stainless steel/titanium?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-06 09:38
Brass will wear out quickly as it's fairly soft like nickel silver - it's used for keywork parts and keys on saxes and Renaissance, Baroque and Classical era woodwinds and some 19th Century woodwinds have brass keys, but nickel silver became the favourite metal for woodwinds (apart from saxes).
Stainless steel and titanium have been used for keywork on some handmade flutes (Wessel, etc.), but it's not an easy metal to braze and stainless steel is very hard going on tools.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2013-07-06 19:25
„Interestingly, here in Switzerland, Silver plate is the de facto standard”
As far as I know all German and Austrian makers offer silver plated instruments only (S & S even gold plated), even when they have their cheaper qualities manufactured in China.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2013-07-06 20:23
You couldn't give me a nickel plated Clarinet.
Anti slip, and durability are what make the difference. The care is more, as you have to keep an anti tarnish strip in the case, and replace it a couple of times a year, but worth the trouble.
I've seen nickel be destroyed pretty quickly by finger acid.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-07-07 00:35
David -
You and me both. I can't keep my fingers from sliding off nickel-plate. Only chrome would be worse. All my clarinets have unplated German-silver keys, and I prefer it when the finish has faded to a dull gray. For me, that has just the right balance of friction and slideability .
I'm allergic to nickel. It thickens my skin and brings up dozens of water blisters on the sides of my fingers. German silver contains nickel, but nickel plating is much worse. For German silver, I can keep the problem under control with a daily applications of 1% steroid cream.
My dermatologist father said to avoid nickel like the plague. The allergy never goes away, and the more you grit your teeth and try to endure it, the worse it gets. When most women get their ears pierced, they are appalled by the cost of heavily gold-plated studs and try nickel. Maybe half have their earlobes swell up so much that the earrings and backs pop apart, sometimes flying across the room.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-07-07 03:09
My Yamaha Custom clarinet has silver plated keys and my 80's Buffet R13 has what I believe is nickel plated keys. I don't notice a big difference in slipperiness, and although I tested as being allergic to chromium before I chose a titanium over a stainless steel body implant and I only do well with a gold earring, I have no allergic reaction to the Buffet keys. My health improved noticeably when I had all my mercury amalgem silver fillings removed and replaced with ceramic.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-07 10:13
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-07-07 10:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-07 10:15
Attachment: earlyct 004.JPG (685k)
Unplated nickel silver feels nice under the fingers and I like the aged patina that develops on it - the advantage of unplated keywork is you can make alterations without having to get the keys replated as there's no plating to get damaged.
Attached is a photo of an early unplated CT I sold a while back.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-07-07 10:20)
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-07-07 11:26
Yeah, I like that look of the old CT. So, is that the kind of keywork that people have allergic reactions to? Do old R13's have the same kind of keywork as this old Centertone?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-07 11:31
People will most likely have more allergic reactions to nickel plated keywork that unplated keywork - there's only around 10% nickel at the most in this alloy (the other metals are copper and zinc, so it's basically brass with added nickel). Cupronickel has a much higher nickel content and is a much harder alloy - Yamaha 200 and 300 series flute bodies are made from cupronickel.
Unplated keywork like this CT is more prone to wear compared to clarinets with plated keywork as the plating is a barrier against corrosive perspiration.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2013-07-07 12:53
I wipe my keys down with an untreated cotton cloth everyday before putting the horns back in the case. Strangely enough it's my silver plated Yamaha that has a touch of discoloration only on the Ab throat key, and my R-13 which is unplated has a touch of patina but no discoloration.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2013-07-07 13:03
I saw an E-11 at the Phila Festival that had a haze to the key work. Must have been nickel plated, as a silver cleaning cloth didn't have any effect on it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I found it really ugly looking.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-07 15:52
Subject to mercury vapour?
Perhaps from some component in the case?
I got some very hazy spots on a silver flute I left on my bed as a teenager, having spilt tiny drops on mercury on the bed. :(
There are so many things wrong with the French-made E11
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-07 16:27
I remember back in the '80s the nickel plate on E13s would discolour quickly and wear through on the throat G# key. I don't know if they were recalled for replating or not as some complaints were made.
It's a bit of a lottery with nickel plate - some seemingly identical instruments will look very different when the plating on some remains bright and shiny whereas others of the same age would turn dull grey.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-07-10 13:37
I am certain that they are not even glued. Just pushed into rather well-fitting holes. They easily lift out, even by pressing certain keys firmly. Then the instrument is unplayable.
I mill a little material from the base of the posts, to make enough room for glue, and superglue them in. It's a pretty tricky operation, because the body is covered with a black goo which is cosmetically wrecked if superglue gets on it.
More detail: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?194787-Bufet-B11-What-a-disgrace!&p=2027287#post2027287
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