 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Courtney
Date: 1999-02-07 05:07
I am a high school junior and have played the clarinet for five years, almost six, and I have good technical skills and love music. I'm convinced that I'm going to continue playing all my life, and I am looking to get a new clarinet. My tone is not the best, so I want the very best clarinet I can get that will help me have the best sound I can. I'm looking at an R-13 right now, four or five years old, that has been cracked and pinned in two places. It is available to me for $1,000, and I'd really like to know: does the fact that the instrument has been cracked and pinned affect the way it plays? I really want to know, because I want to get the best.
Thanks a lot,
Courtney
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-07 14:39
Courtney wrote:
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I am a high school junior and have played the clarinet for five years, almost six, and I have good technical skills and love music. I'm convinced that I'm going to continue playing all my life, and I am looking to get a new clarinet. My tone is not the best, so I want the very best clarinet I can get that will help me have the best sound I can. I'm looking at an R-13 right now, four or five years old, that has been cracked and pinned in two places. It is available to me for $1,000, and I'd really like to know: does the fact that the instrument has been cracked and pinned affect the way it plays? I really want to know, because I want to get the best.
My primary horn is a 1950's Leblanc Symphonie II that had cracked and been pinned before I bought it back in the 1960's. Everyone who has ever heard it thinks it sounds wonderful and has no idea that it was pinned. So I would have to say that if the job was competently done, it makes no difference. However, I consider their asking price a bit high. Keep in mind that the major mail order outfits sell a brand new one at a discount price of around $1800.
No matter what you do about the horn, look into good reeds and mouthpieces. These will make more difference than anything except your embouchure. What are you playing on now for reeds and a mouthpiece?
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Author: Stephanie aka Benny
Date: 1999-02-07 14:51
Hey courtney,
i am a jr. too. i would look and see about the cheapest NEW horn that you could get. Like Dee said $1800 for a new horn to me sounds better than a $1000 for a cracked and pinned on. but if it turns out that the cheaper is better go for it...just make sure that the crack and pin job does not affect the tone and overall sound of the horn. Good luck and hope that i could help.
--benny
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-07 14:54
Stephanie aka Benny wrote:
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Hey courtney,
i am a jr. too. i would look and see about the cheapest NEW horn that you could get. Like Dee said $1800 for a new horn to me sounds better than a $1000 for a cracked and pinned on. but if it turns out that the cheaper is better go for it...just make sure that the crack and pin job does not affect the tone and overall sound of the horn. Good luck and hope that i could help.
--benny
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Actually I meant that she should try to bargain them down if it does indeed sound good. By knowing what new ones can be bought for she has more leverage to do so. Used professional level instruments are often excellent buys.
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Author: Courtney
Date: 1999-02-07 17:00
Dee--
I am playing a Vandoren B45 and trying different reeds. I really want a new mouthpiece but I'm really not sure what to get. I just know I need something better than this one! I want to get a darker, clearer, more focused tone, and I don't want too much resistance. I find that, with my B45, if I use anything harder than a 3 1/2 in Glotin Gaya or Vandoren then I can't get a full tone or good dynamic contrast. Any help you or anyone else can give would be great!
Thanks,
Courtney
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-07 17:44
Courtney wrote:
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I am playing a Vandoren B45 and trying different reeds. I really want a new mouthpiece but I'm really not sure what to get. I just know I need something better than this one! I want to get a darker, clearer, more focused tone, and I don't want too much resistance. I find that, with my B45, if I use anything harder than a 3 1/2 in Glotin Gaya or Vandoren then I can't get a full tone or good dynamic contrast. Any help you or anyone else can give would be great!
---
"Doctor, it hurts when I do that!"
"Well, don't <i>do</i> that!"
If anything higher that a 3 1/2 doesn't sound good - don't <b>use</b> anything higher than a 3 1/2! The higher numbers are just <B><I>stiffer</I></B>, not better! On a close faced mouthpiece you'll generally use a stiffer reed, and on an open faced mouthpiece you generally will use a softer reed.
Now, mouthpieces are a personal type of item - as you've read again and again here. You've got to try some and see what best suits you. Take a favorite reed, fabric or plastic ligature, and your clarinet to a local store that carries a lot of mouthpieces and try them there if you're going to buy them there. If you're local store's prices are out of line, then use mailorder and order a few at a time from either a mailorder outlet or from a maker like Greg Smith, Clark Fobes, etc.
Do not try mouthpieces at a store & then order via mailorder. Mouthpieces do vary considerably from one to another, but more importantly it's very unfair to the local store.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-07 18:37
Courtney wrote:
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... I find that, with my B45, if I use anything harder than a 3 1/2 in Glotin Gaya or Vandoren then I can't get a full tone or good dynamic contrast. Any help you or anyone else can give would be great!
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According to Vandoren's literature, that is about the stiffest you should go on the B45 mouthpiece. If you want to go stiffer (and I DON'T advise that), you will need a mouthpiece with a smaller tip opening. Many classical players do use such a mouthpiece but don't necessarily use a stiffer reed. Based on what others have reported here (I haven't tried it), you might want to try the Vandoren 5RVLyre. It is a little bit more closed at the tip.
While I find that the B45 with either a Vandoren 3.5 or Mitchell Lurie 4 reed gives me the sound that I want, you perhaps need a different brand. Many people speak well of the Grand Concert brand. In Vandorens, some people prefer the V12 reed to the regular.
The other thing to work on is of course embouchure and breath support. You might try warming up each day with a scale consisting of long tones and going up and down the full range of the clarinet. Hold each note as long as you can before going to the next one. This will develop and strengthen your embouchure and breath support. Also this lets you "hear" each note and aim for a good tone.
Have you had an instructor specializing in clarinet check your embouchure?
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-02-07 18:56
$1000 sounds a bit high for an R13 that's been pinned - and in two places no less! I think you can find better used R13s out there for $1000. As Dee said, if this clarinet plays well (and tunes well) and you really want it, try to bargain with the person.
If you really think you will be playing for the rest of your life (or a really loing time, anyway) then consider the cost of a *new* (approx $1800 "sale" price) R13 amoratized over the duration of your musical career. It might seem like a lot of money now, but prices will only go higher in the future and an excellent clarinet will last a LONG time (I've had mine for 18 years and counting - and I have some instruments that are more than 60 years old).
Kevin Bowman
Clarinet and Saxophone Instructor,
Rochester Conservatory of Music, Rochester, MI
and
Saxophones, Clarinet, and Keys,
B-Side Blues Project
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Author: Courtney
Date: 1999-02-07 19:22
Okay. Many of you have suggested that I look into getting a new R-13 for $1,800 mail order. Where do I order it from? Also, what is the difference between a standard R-13, a Vintage, and a Prestige, and are they priced any differently? Thanks to all of you for your help!
Courtney
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Author: Merry
Date: 1999-02-07 23:09
There is nothing wrong with second hand instruments if you can find a good one. I bought my Buffet RC second hand for half the price of a new one. It has no cracks (and is less likely to crack now as it is eight years old) and the instrument and case look like new. I didn't have to put it through the breaking in period and some other person paid for all of the depreciation on it and I have already had it valued for more than I paid for it. You can't say that about a new one. Shop around, you may get lucky and save yourself about $900.00 in the process.
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Author: James Cortigiano
Date: 1999-02-08 10:42
hey, Courtney, forget about that cracked and pinned clarinet. Go to a pawn shop and buy one there. I've seen all kinds of Buffets and Yamahas and Selmers over the years for sale in pawn shops. Many in good to excellent condition. Generally, plastics start around $100 and woodens start around $300. You will be surprised at the good buys you will see. So check out the pawn shops in your city! I hope this works out for you. Also, if you are taking private lessons, perhaps your instructor may know of others selling their instruments.
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Author: Fred McKenzie
Date: 1999-02-08 11:05
Courtney wrote:
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I'm looking at an R-13 right now, four or five years old, that has been cracked and pinned in two places. It is available to me for $1,000, and I'd really like to know: does the fact that the instrument has been cracked and pinned affect the way it plays?
Courtney-
I'm surprised no one has responded before now.
I believe that this repair should mainly affect the value of the instrument, assuming the repair was good. That said, I also believe the value is now less than $1000!
As in buying a new instrument, you want to try it before buying. It also would be good to try others for comparison.
Fred
<a href=http://www.dreamnetstudios.com/music/mmb/index.htm>MMB</a>
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-08 13:09
James Cortigiano wrote:
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... Go to a pawn shop and buy one there. I've seen all kinds of Buffets and Yamahas and Selmers over the years for sale in pawn shops. Many in good to excellent condition ...
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This is fine so long as you know how to evaluate the instrument for condition and probably cost of repair. I have seen some that should have been classified as unrepairable. Unless you get lucky, set aside about $200 to pay for a complete overhaul just in case.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-08 17:20
Another drawback to a pawnshop is that if the horn ever had cracked and was pinned, you might not ever know about it. A really good repair can be invisible. This is not necessarily bad but most people do like to know the status of what they are buying.
When I was a student, I bought my Leblanc used and the only way that I knew that it had been pinned was that the dealer told me. The repair job was so good that I have never found the pinned location. Personally I bought the horn because it sounded and played great.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-02-08 19:03
I once heard a story about cracks.... supposedly, Harold Wright had so many cracks in his clarinet that when Hans Moennig worked on his horn he had to slip the body in a plastic sleeve to keep it from falling apart when he took the pins out...
If a crack has been repaired properly, it should have no affect on the horn's playablilty.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-02-08 21:46
Daniel wrote:
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I once heard a story about cracks.... supposedly, Harold Wright had so many cracks in his clarinet that when Hans Moennig worked on his horn he had to slip the body in a plastic sleeve to keep it from falling apart when he took the pins out...
If a crack has been repaired properly, it should have no affect on the horn's playablilty.
Actually, it was Ralph McLane's (pre-R-13, pre-World-War-II) Buffet A clarinet. Kalmen Opperman, who studied with McLane, told me the upper joint cracked dozens of times, until Moennig put a silver ring around it just below the trademark, which finally stabilized it. He also told me McLane's instruments were the finest he had ever played.
Harold Wright got the instrument after McLane's death. I heard Wright play the Brahms Quintet on it 25 years ago, and I still remember exactly where I was sitting and what a gorgeous sound he got out of the instrument. And I saw the silver ring, too.
So much for the theory that a crack ruins a clarinet.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Brian F.
Date: 1999-02-09 03:55
I'll throw in another vote of support for the used instruments. I play a 69 year old set of Selmers thet play beautifully, especially the B flat which has a crack repaired by pinning, and a recessed band covered over by a wood sleeve. There is nothing wrong with new clarinets, but I could have never afforded a set of this quality (custom professional models at the time.) As far as ligatures, I've had good luck with Rovners and Harrisons. Good luck.
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Author: Courtney
Date: 1999-02-09 03:56
Thanks to everyone--I'm going to open up my options and look at some other deals before I decide.
By the way, Dee--what embouchere tips can you give? I do feel as though mine is not perfect, and this may be affecting my sound.
Thanks,
Courtney
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-02-09 04:19
Brian F. wrote:
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As far as ligatures, I've had good luck with Rovners and Harrisons. Good luck.
Unfortunately, Harrison ligatures are no longer being made since he died. Stores that still sell them are selling from back stock.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-02-09 13:59
Daniel wrote:
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Unfortunately, Harrison ligatures are no longer being made since he died. Stores that still sell them are selling from back stock.
Daniel -
I think Harrison's company remains in business, despite his death. Their website is active at http://www.harrisonhurtz.com/, with a ligature page at http://www.harrisonhurtz.com/files/texis/scripts/catalog/~uMWeGUaDCfJzPoKGB1qw5/prodlist.html
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-02-09 17:28
Another thing to consider: repair costs down the road. This clarinet has already cracked in two places. How many more times will it crack? How much does a high-quality repair cost? This clarinet may never crack again, but if it starts going "sproing!" all over the place, it may end up costing somebody a bucket-load more than $1,000 before the lucky buyer gets through; and lots of luck ever selling it, if it does crack some more. Might be cheaper in the long run to buy a new R-13 with the crack replacement policy.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-02-09 18:16
Ken Shaw wrote:
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Daniel wrote:
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Unfortunately, Harrison ligatures are no longer being made since he died. Stores that still sell them are selling from back stock.
Daniel -
I think Harrison's company remains in business, despite his death. Their website is active at http://www.harrisonhurtz.com/, with a ligature page at http://www.harrisonhurtz.com/files/texis/scripts/catalog/~uMWeGUaDCfJzPoKGB1qw5/prodlist.html
Ken Shaw
Hmm.. for real? i had heard from several places that because of his death, the ligatures and reed cases and mouthpiece cases were no longer being made... hmm. okie dokie.. tht's good news for me incase i need another mouthpiece case sometime...
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-02-09 18:18
My repair guy pinned my significant other's clarinet twice (8 pins total for around $10 a pin. <shrug> so it's not that expensive to get a great job done.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-10 00:56
Well there are a lot of possible things you could check although it would really be better to try to get together with a qualified teacher. Anyway here goes:
1. If your sound is "thin", you may be pinching or biting the reed. Many people develop this bad habit trying to get up to pitch in the higher notes when what they really need is more air pressure (not air quantity). Try the double lip embouchure as a remedial exercise.
2. Is your jaw moving (especiallly when you tongue)? This can make the notes speak poorly or have a little thud or quack at the beginning. Try tonguing a note like the open G and feel your jaw with the left hand. Try to keep it motionless.
3. Try to get hold of Daniel Bonade's "Clarinet Compendium" for discussions of embouchure. Another good embouchure discussion is in a book by Robert Lowrey (I'm not sure of the spelling on that last name so you might also try Lowery or Lowry if you try to track it down).
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