 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tracy
Date: 2002-07-06 06:23
I have a wooden Buffet clarinet that is stamped with Evette & Schaeffer from Paris, France. I just took it in to have it looked at for any repairs necessary for my 8 yr old daughter to use. Now I'm trying to find out how old it is. The serial number is B0770. According to the site for Boosey&Hawkes, that serial number is only listed under Professional clarinet. Yet, now I have read that Evette&Schaeffer made student clarinets that their name was applied to. HELP!!! If my "old" clarinet is really OLD, I'm not sure that I want my daughter to use it. Opinions and any info would be greatly appreciated!!
Sincerely, Tracy
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-07-06 13:06
I doubt that it is old enough to be a problem. Very few clarinets have any intrinsic value due to age (there were too many of them made, especially intermediate level horns like Evette & Schaeffer). If it can be put into good playing condition, go ahead and let her use it.
Many of us on this board use clarinets that have some age on them. My main instrument is a pro Leblanc from the 1950s. My backup up is a Pruefer from about 1940 or so. There are some people on this board using instruments from the 1930s.
The serial numbers for Buffet's professional instruments are independent of those for their intermediate and beginner instruments. So rest assured that your Evette & Schaeffer does NOT date from 1887. The Evette and the Evette & Schaeffer instruments preceded Buffet's current E series (E-11 and E-13). As such, the Evettes and Evette & Schaeffer instruments were probably discontinued around 1960 or so. I don't know when they started making this series, but I've seen none that would be older than the mid-1930s. This is based on instruments that I've seen that were in what appeared to be in their original cases and using the case styling as an indicator of age.
As far as I can tell, there is little to no information on serial numbers for the Evette & Schaeffer instruments. Buffet simply did not keep records of them. They also lost many records over time. Buffet is not alone in this. Most makers don't seem to have any records older than about 30 years so the lists you find on the internet have been painstakinly compiled by correlating information such as "my grandpa, mom, uncle, etc bought this new in xxxx" and so on.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-07-06 15:16
Buffet did have a "B-series" Evette & Schaeffer instrument. I have seen a few on eBay in the past. These serial numbers are not on the Boosey list (which only has serial numbers for K4000 -- 1952, according to their list-- and later). As Dee has mentioned, the earlier records may have been lost, either during WWII or a period of financial difficulty that Buffet faced after the war.
There is some evidence that the K-series began in the late 1930's or early 1940's and it makes sense that the A and B series' were earlier than that. Since you sound like a clarinetist, yourself, perhaps you can provide some useful information. Here are some questions that might help with the dating:
1. On the upper joint, does the throat G# key have a small adjusting screw?
2. Also, on the upper joint, do the throat G# and A keys share a post or are there two separate posts for each of the keys?
3. On the lower joint, do the left-hand (cluster) E/B and F#/C# levers each have their own pivot post or do they share one.
Alternatively, if you have a scanner and it is easier for you, if you want to lay the instrument, or at least its two joints (sections with keys) carefully on the scanner, scan the picture to a jpeg file and e-mail it to me at my above address, I might be able to infer some additional information.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-07-06 16:03
I have an Evette & Schaeffer with a "B" prefix to the serial number. It is stamped <b>Evette & Schaeffer....Paris....France....Modele Buffet Crampon</b> The serial number is B1497. I suspect it was made in the '50s but not for sure.
<a href="http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org">jbutler</a>
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Author: Tracy
Date: 2002-07-06 16:10
I have my clarinet at the music store for an estimate on any repairs that need to be done at the moment. According to my memory, keep in mind that I haven't played since junior high, I will try to answer your questions and get back to you if they are different.
#1. Yes, the throat G# key has a small adjusting screw.
#2 I believe the throat G# key and the A key are on separate posts.
#3 I also believe the cluster keys all have their own pivot post.
This is based on memory and looking at it just yesterday. I know for sure the answer to number one is correct. Am pretty sure about the answers for numbers 2 & 3, but not positive. Once I have the clarinet back, I will let you know if I was mistaken.
My parents bought this clarinet for me in Kansas, in 1975, when I was 10 years old. We purchased it used back then for under $200.
The case is a hard sided case, I believe made of leather or possibly a soft vinyl, that is colored a rusted brown and has rounded edges with the metal stamp of Buffet on it. It has two locking latches. To open the latches you have to push a button to the side for the latch to come up. The inside of the case is a burgundy colored velvet with an area at the back of the case that holds extras such as the swab, lyre, etc. (Just one long open area across the back). There is also one small section that measures about 1x2 inches where the reed case goes. The reed case held approx. 5 reeds. I no longer have this case but there is a spot directly in the middle of the case for it. I understand that sometimes the case can help in determining the time frame from which it was made.
Thank you for the postings back from everyone. This site has been extremely exciting to me. Since it has been years since I have played my clarinet, I was very surprised, but delighted, to see that there were soooo many people using the site to have questions answered! I'm also thrilled that my daughter is anxious to start playing an instrument. I may have to start teaching her myself since her school doesn't let them start till the fifth grade. She in only beginning the third in the fall!
Sincerely, Tracy
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-07-06 17:38
Tracy and JNK,
The one I have has the "regular" size adusting screw for the G#. The G# and A key configuration is on three posts _| configuration. It does have separate posts for the lower joint, left hand C#/F# and B/E. The same two keys have the Buffet style connections to the keys, in other words the right hand C#/F# and B/E keys have the hole where the nub of the levers goes into. The bridge key is different in that it is wider and has a "T" type condiguration on the lower joint rather than the upper joint. All the other keys are typical Buffet style.
<a href="http://www.cork-and-pad.woodwind.org">jbutler</a>
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-07-09 05:22
Tracy and John,
FWIW, here are some observations I have made.
In general, within a given brand and line (but there are probably exceptions):
Clarinets with no adjusting screw on the throat G# key tend to be older than clarinets with an adjusting screw.
Clarinets with a shared post for the G# and A throat key tend to be older than clarinets with independent posts for both keys.
Clarinets with a shared pivot for the the F#/C# and E/B keys in the left hand cluster on the lower joint tend to be older than clarinets with two pivots.
My A-series Evette & Schaeffer has no adjusting screw, a shared post for the G# and A throat keys and two (individual) pivots for the F#/C# and E/B keys on the lower joint.
John, your B-series E&S and, if my memory serves, another I saw on eBay has the same features except that it has an adjusting screw. Tracy, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that your instrument has the same features as John's. The shared post is easy to overlook and you were going from memory.
As I mentioned before, the Boosey website, starts its serial numbers for E&S at K4000. Based on an instrument that I own, byy around K10500, E&S clarinets had all the newer features in my list above. However, starting at K4000 and continuing up to some point between K4144 (from a recent auction on eBay) and K10500, E&S models have the same features as John's B-series. That means that I can place the changeover between 1952 and 1961. In an earlier thread, Vytas indicates that an instrument with this feature was made prior to 1955. That seem reasonable but I don't know the source of his information or how precise he is.
From these observations, I would like to conclude that the order of E&S series to be: first A, then B, then K(4000+?). My A-series instrument has identical keywork to a pair of 1934 R13's owned by a friend so I suspect mine was made around that time -- maybe a little earlier, maybe a little later. The B-series would probably then fit in the 40's and perhaps even the early 50's. Everything nice and neat so far but ....
there are K-series E&S instruments below K4000. One, that sold on eBay, numbered K512, had a bill of sale, presumably for the instrument, dated 1943. Vytas has one numbered K179 that has no adjusting screw, a shared post for the G# and A throat keys, and only one pivot post for the F#/C# and E/B keys on the lower joint. These features suggest that his clarinet is even older than mine!!!!!!! I can't explain these anomalies, there are too many possibilities.
So Tracy, if you're confused ... welcome to the club. My best guess, based on your and John's descriptions is that your clarinet dates from the 1940's but I can't be sure.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-07-09 16:09
1930? Evette & Schaeffer K179. Here's some pictures.
[Next time anyone posts pictures here of items they aare selling on eBay they will be banned from posting. It's an obvious infraction of the "No self-promotion" rules. Mark C.]
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-07-09 22:10
Mark C.,
I've posted pictures in response to jnk post and NO infraction of the "No self-promotion" rules was intended. I just wanted to show features of the 70 years old instrument. There was NO link or item number posted to ebay item???? Sorry you got that impression....V
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-07-10 03:46
Mark C,
I mentioned that I got R-13 and E&S ended up on eBay....V
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-07-10 14:26
jnk,
With the introduction of the R-13 in 1955 the throat G# and A keys were mounted on separate posts....V
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-07-11 04:17
Vytas,
Can you cite good documentary (or other) evidence for this statement? If true, it would provide a simple way of determining whether an "R13" from the "border" years had a polycylindrical bore or not.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Amy
Date: 2002-09-10 14:10
I have been trying to determine the age of a B series, B4477. The response I got from Boosey was:
"After checking again with our antique specialist we inform you that
your clarinet is a student model B flat (440 pitch) and was manufactured in June 1952."
I hope this is correct information!
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-15 01:10
Way back in 2002, there was some discussion of Evette & Schaeffer serial numbers, particularly the pre-4000 K series. Three questions Jack Kissinger asked more than once about instruments from that period:
> 1. On the upper joint, does the throat G# key have a small adjusting screw?
> 2. Also, on the upper joint, do the throat G# and A keys share a post or are
> there two separate posts for each of the keys?
> 3. On the lower joint, do the left-hand (cluster) E/B and F#/C# levers each
> have their own pivot post or do they share one.
I don't know for sure how much if any more is known now than then. For what it's worth, on my K24xx non Master Model E&S:
1. G# key has adjusting screw.
2. G# and A keys share a post.
3. The LH E/B and F#/C# levers have separate pivots, mounted on separate posts -- one about 1cm above (closer to the mouthpiece than) the other.
For another piece of information that might aid in dating: the case is black, with purple lining. It's thin with a flared part to accommodate the bell. Two spring latches, with locks in the latch releases. There's what I thought was a space for a second barrel, but on looking online at other old cases I think now it's for a reed case. A wire-and-yarn mop type cleaner came with the instrument when I got it, and I think it was supplied originally with the instrument; there's a loop in the case to hold it. There's also a space for a small flat round container of cork grease.
Hope this information is useful to someone, and if anyone has light to shed on these early K-series serial numbers I'd be interested in hearing.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2006-09-15 01:48
Guess I should've waited a few minutes to post that. I just got an email from the previous owner, telling me "This was my clarinet that was purchased new for me. I think it was purchased about 1954."
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2006-09-16 18:18
Many of the Buffet Schaeffer clarinets pre 1980 are very nice...it seems later on the construction the keywork tended to be cheap and poorly done. I know a number of players who are very impressed with the way they play and note these models are superb in intonation.
David Dow
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