 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-29 02:46
Alright....I'll admit it. I have no clue why I keep looking for more clarinets to add to my "arsenal", but I do. I'm wondering if there is any reason for me to have a full boehm horn if all I do is amuse myself and don't play in public? AND will it fit in my double buffet case? Isn't the lower joint a lot longer than a regular clarinet, due to the extra key and pad? Any and all thoughts would greatly be appreciated. Even those that tell me I don't need the thing unless I'm playing orchestra.
John
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Author: L Skopitz
Date: 2002-06-29 03:35
I recent got a selmer series 9 with some extra keys- not quite a full boehm, but close. It is not longer, but heavier. The extra keys can help you play some trills a little more efficiently and give you more options when playing around the eflat/aflat. However, this would require you learning the alternate fingerings, which may be more trouble than it is worth. I am using the selmer as a back up for my r13 and am just ignoring the extra keys. I guess if you plan to do a lot of playing and are able to master complicated pieces which require fancy fingerings, the full boehm would be of help. But, if you, like me, just play for yourself mostly, and aren't trying to break into an advanced classical orchestra or concert band, the regular bohem is really all you need. In any case, there is very little you cannot accomplish with a regular horn, which is why most professionals do not invest in a full boehm. My advice is to save your money, or buy a bari sax and have some real fun. -LMS
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-06-29 04:07
If you play Bulgarian wedding music, you need a full boehm! Anyone wanna buy me one? 
The Bulgarians use the low Eb key for ornaments when in the clarion. It really facilitates the kind of ornaments they use, especially in the keys they like. A hejaz, for one...
Katrina
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-29 04:49
eh'zactly!
that's what I was thinking..just such a good deal, I thought...well, why not? Just for "playin' around with". BUT...
why not save and get a WISEMAN case to hold what I already got?
Anyone got a "number" I can referrence for the discount?
John
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-06-29 07:34
Why don't you grab yourself a pair of fully optioned Oehler clarinets from somebody like Hammerschmidt. More bells and whistles than a full boehm and at only 20 times the price. You can even get a 50/50 1/2 full boehm, 1/2 German system complete with articulated G# and probably a low Eb. Don't settle for any old complicated clarinet. Get the most complicated of all from the word go.
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-29 14:42
....As always....thanks for the info. Especially you Mark P...
maybe I can add a bicycle horn to the bell and squeeze it from time to time for effect....
As for what key the instrument is, I can't tell. Am I to assume however that if it's a full boehm system and 29 inches long with MPC that it is in the key of A?
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-29 14:52
Great Comment M P !! Is that the "Reform Boehm" we hear and read about?? As I may have said before, my first good cl was a P M FB, [now have more!!] so I grew up with it and "became acoustomed [sp] to its keys", apologies to My Fair Lady, and most of my G&S [trans. the A parts] and dance band playing was with it . As I recall, the fork Eb/Bb and the alt. Ab/Eb were the most useful, tho playing solo on Stardust [in 5b's] the low Eb did sound great. Not many clarion F#/G# trills for the artic. Good posts LMS and others!! Love these complicated ones. Get one +. Don
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-29 15:05
Mark C...
Why Bb? Are they the most common "full" systems? If so, is the added length (3 inches or so) just to accomodate the low Eb? And wouldn't it change the key? Thanks
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-29 15:07
John Gibson wrote:
>
> Mark C...
>
> Why Bb? Are they the most common "full" systems?
Yes - just as the "plain" Bb is the most common instrument. In Italy is was (is?) common for a clarinet player to only have the one instrument and transpose everything for the A to the Bb.
> If so, is
> the added length (3 inches or so) just to accomodate the low
> Eb?
Yes. A full Boehm A is less useful since we don't have a clarinet in that range that is keyed in Ab where transposition would be useful.
> And wouldn't it change the key? Thanks
>
> John
No. It just adds the lower note. To change the key would require a different bore diameter, length, and hole spacing (they're all interrelated).
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-29 15:21
IMHO, because, the "half-step" transposition is more difficult than the "full step" [or even the Bb/Eb trans] and the need for it occurs frequently in older music, [pro's please help me!]. Yes, the added length is to keep the low Eb on the lower joint, not on an elongated bell as in the "metal bells", alto, bass etc. I have an OLD A with all of the FB except the low Eb!! Some may even have it, of little use, IMHO. Don
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-06-29 18:14
Yes, the full Boehm is an interesting instrument. The 1912 Buffet full Boehm I own weighs less than my R13 possibly because the wood wall thickness is less and the keys are physically smaller. Good luck!
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Author: JackOrion
Date: 2002-06-29 20:09
I have a Penzell Muller full Boehm and the C# vent is over the joint break. It has a hole in the joint and cork and plays miserably flat. The rest of the horn is nice, silver plated keys, thin turned horn, exceptional wood....it's just that one key that realy sucks!! Plus if you have large hand as I do, there is little space. I'm keeping it for now bout I never play it.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-06-29 20:40
there is actually an acoustic advantage to a full boehm clarinet- the B natural (middle line of treble cleff) SHOULD sound better as it has some bore after it to resonate the note a bit more.... apparently (i have only tested this theory once or twice)
in fact- i do remember seeing clarinets built by Italians i think (but not Orsi or Patricola, can't remember who) that were not full boehm, but had the extra length at the bottom of the horn, with an open tone hole just above the bell..... literally, a low E flat that you couldn't use (as it didn't have a key to shut the hole!). Apparently the advantage of this was better tone, at least better "matching of the tone", on middle line B natural. i think this is a great idea, the extra weight doesn't bother me.... it wouldn't be much anyway.... does anyone else remember these?
donald
ps= back to the original posting, it would be safe to assume that any full Boehm clarinet would come with a case that was big enough
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-29 20:50
Gosh and gee whiz, Jack, now I know of 3 Penzel-Mueller Full Boehms [another in Tulsa], mine is ser.no. 8840 , 1920's per my music teacher who played it in SILENT movie theaters. I bought it about 1932-3. Is your problem only of the C#/G#? If so, I suggest being sure the tone holeS are correctly oriented and that the pad rises sufficiently. My horn's "flatness" was above the staff, prob. due more to me/mouthpiece at that time. Had the barrel shortened, but with a newer PM barrel and diff. mp, it improved, but still not as "comfortable" up high as my Selmers, which I play for fingering reasons. The above will cause me to try it again, now that the musical and comm band gigs have slowed down. Please let me know further, Ah, OLD Memories. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-29 20:57
Gosh and gee whiz, Jack, now I know of 3 Penzel-Mueller Full Boehms [another in Tulsa], mine is ser.no. 8840 , 1920's per my music teacher who played it in SILENT movie theaters. I bought it about 1932-3. Is your problem only of the C#/G#? If so, I suggest being sure the tone holeS are correctly oriented and that the pad rises sufficiently. My horn's "flatness" was above the staff, prob. due more to me/mouthpiece at that time. Had the barrel shortened, but with a newer PM barrel and diff. mp, it improved, but still not as "comfortable" up high as my Selmers, which I play to solve my 17/6 fingering "problems". The above will cause me to try it again, now that the musical and comm band gigs have slowed down. Please let me know of your further results, Ah, OLD! Memories. Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-30 04:03
On that flat G#, it is very likely insufficient venting, which a good technician can correct, (or misaligned tone holes in the tenon and its socket - the way you assemble it), but also check that the tone hole is not clogged up with cork grease.
I say a 'good technician'. I think a majority of technicians would do more harm than good in this delicate area of clarinet adjustment - articulated G#.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2002-06-30 04:24
John: if you only play for your own pleasure, and you are interested in a full boehm, but the extra length and weight worries you, then I have a suggestion: look for a high pitch full boehm. It will be something like a half inch shorter than a standard full boehm. Most important, it should be considerably cheaper, since you can't play along with anyone else.
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-30 20:50
Thanks to all for the replies....and to you as well John. The high pitch is an idea. I'm not concerned about weight or length. Well...the length part only because I want to put it in my double buffet case...but it looks like that won't work. So, I'm not going to buy it....I don't want a whole bunch of cases of clarinets all over the place...
John
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-06-30 23:24
Aw, John G. cases all over the place is half the fun!
I'm curious as to why it wouldn't fit in the A clarinet section of a double case, though. Technically it's the same length. Wouldn't it be possible to cut additional spots for the extra keys?
Katrina
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-07-01 02:21
The joints may be different sizes, considering FB's have the articulated C#/G# AND the positioning of the keys may be different. But who knows? I have personally played neither full Boehm nor A clarinet
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-01 03:09
Thanks, David! I missed the boat on the articulated C#/G#! I bet that's it.
On the Full-Boehm case front, the Bulgarian guy I studied with near Plovdiv last summer had a case, but was very adamant it was not the "original" case for the horn. He wanted to know if I could find one here. I think I communicated the idea of "not bloody likely" fairly well!
Katrina
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-01 03:12
The above 3 posts make well-put mention of the case problem with the F Bs. Yes, the usual FB [and others] UJ is shorter than a 17/6 UJ due to the C#/G# tone hole and keywork location, making the LJ longer at its top, and then, more added length for the Eb, makes the LJ some 2" longer than a 17/6, which is prob. too long for even the A cl "slots". I have an old "double-sized" case, the [open] front section of which might accommodate a FB LJ's length. Prob. a handy-repairer could modify the troughs in an ordinary case. Don
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-07-01 03:27
That's what I'm talkin' about! Have a perfectly nice double Buffet case with a Bb R-13 and a hole for the "A" because I just sold my old CONN. Now my buffet's "lonely", and being a clarinet nerd and accumulator of "stuff" I've got this money to fill the void and was
fantacizing about something different. The Selmer FB came up and I thought "cool". A new toy. Not that I'd be using it to play with the local symphony or anything. Just goofing in the bedroom with it. I just don't want a zillion horn cases on the floor(Kat).
So now I'm thinking...a regular Selmer or Leblanc.
Maybe I should just go play with what I have...and get a reed wizard or 500 new reeds to whittle down....or maybe a 401K....or...
donate the $$ to Arizona fire victims....
John
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-01 14:37
I was just kidding about the horn cases, John. I probably have fewer than you do...
You could buy me the full boehm... ;^)
Just kidding...the folks in Arizona need the money more...
Katrina
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2002-07-01 18:25
I have the Amati ACL 615, an A full boehm, with low Eb, I don't know why do you need an A full boehm (to reach the real low C?)
The italian maker quoted by nzdonald is Ripamonti:
www.laripamonti.com;
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-01 19:48
Let me add a ridiculous idea to all the above serious, silly and other ideas:
For all the complexity and weight of a full-Boehm clarinet, PLUS the extra complexity of plateau keys, PLUS the extra complexity of an automatic double register mechanism, PLUS a full extra octave of really cool chalumeau register, FOR LESS THAN THE PRICE OF A FULL-BOEHM SOPRANO CLARINET..............
...................buy a bass clarinet! Someday, you'll thank me for this advice.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-07-01 20:20
..... i love the bass clarinet to bits, but have to say that a CHEAP bass clarinet has never proven to be the bringer of jolity in my experience.... maybe in the US you can find good cheap bass clarinets 2nd hand, but not here.
thanks to Javier for mentioning Ripamonte as the lost memory fragment circulating somewhere in my poor brain- (re extra bore and open hole at bottom of clarinet to improve E/B tone) i never tried this idea out to see if it worked, but it seems like such a good idea. The weight difference would be slight.
re the Full Boehm clarinet case- the Christchurch Symphony orchestra has an old E flat clarinet that didn't have a case. Their Principal clarinet (Gretchen Dunsmore) found a plastic tube (pvc?) with stoppers on each end that is exactly the right size- you wrap the eefer in a thin sheet of foam stuff (i forget what the proper name for it is) and then insert the whole caboodle into the tube. Kind of like a mumified clarinet. The tube has "CSO rocket launcher" written on it. But it is a very practical idea- these tubes are often used by artists/architechts etc for storing drawings/documents..... no room for extra stuff + you have to keep the instrument set up (you COULD mumify a 2 piece clarinet in.... two pieces i guess)... may be harder to find a tube big enough for a B flat size bell..... hmmmmmm
donald
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-07-01 20:21
Very well said, Dave, that's what we have done, right? Every time I have posted re: sop FBs, I later recognize that I should have made mention that most good, even-mediocre, basses [and lowers] may be F Bs also [without the fork Eb/Bb, its not very necessary IMHO, use the two first fingers method]. I've even seen an alto cl or so with the Ab/Eb and the art. C#/G#, but alto players are few in number!! Don
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-07-01 20:22
..... i love the bass clarinet to bits, but have to say that a CHEAP bass clarinet has never proven to be the bringer of jolity in my experience.... maybe in the US you can find good cheap bass clarinets 2nd hand, but not here.
thanks to Javier for mentioning Ripamonte as the lost memory fragment circulating somewhere in my poor brain- (re extra bore and open hole at bottom of clarinet to improve E/B tone) i never tried this idea out to see if it worked, but it seems like such a good idea. The weight difference would be slight.
re the Full Boehm clarinet case- the Christchurch Symphony orchestra has an old E flat clarinet that didn't have a case. Their Principal clarinet (Gretchen Dunsmore) found a plastic tube (pvc?) with stoppers on each end that is exactly the right size- you wrap the eefer in a thin sheet of foam stuff (i forget what the proper name for it is) and then insert the whole caboodle into the tube. Kind of like a mumified clarinet. The tube has "CSO rocket launcher" written on it. But it is a very practical idea- these tubes are often used by artists/architechts etc for storing drawings/documents..... no room for extra stuff + you have to keep the instrument set up (you COULD mumify a 2 piece clarinet in.... two pieces i guess)... may be harder to find a tube big enough for a B flat size bell..... hmmmmmm
donald
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-07-01 22:45
And if you want even more issues... go for CONTRA!! (Sorry I play that instrument; that is also an accident... really...)
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-07-02 14:49
David P: I play lots of contra these days (a plastic EEb Buescher, identical to a Bundy, the only Bundy instrument I've ever liked) and with the highly-refaced Bundy 3 mouthpiece I've made for it, it sounds like a good bass clarinet (IMHO) --- a blast to play! I recommend contra to all my patients............. The only issue I have with contra is the lack of a half-hole mechanism to aid in playing altissimo --- notes above 2nd line C (written) are a real challenge on contra, whereas they're a walk in the park on bass clarinet.
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2002-07-03 02:09
Check the classifieds. I'm selling my full Boehm.
And Don, I'm from Tulsa too.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-07-03 13:48
David S: Contra's s a blast, isn't it? And those high notes ARE a challenge! Using throat fingerings I managed to go up to a high E and could then squeeze out F, F#, and G by "squeaking", but then my instrument (also a Bundy, which I also like) went in for an overhaul and I couldn't get those notes out again. How odd. I do wish I could find a paperclip model with low C, however, seeing how I read off tuba music so much. (and for some reason my band director likes me to take things down an octave on contra...
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2002-07-12 23:34
When I bought a "semi-full Boehm" A to match my Bb "Full Boehm" from Selmer back in the early 1980's, Selmer quite nicely rebuilt a pair case for me to house both horns. All that at no cost to me, the end user...
Now, if I could just get them to build me a new case for my model 33 bass. The current one doesn't work, as the proportions of the joints have changed over the years.
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