 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brendan
Date: 2002-06-19 23:40
I read the BB most days and enjoy many of the threads on it. The only downfall of the BB is some of the "regular's". I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is the beauty of the BB.
There is a tendancy for many of the more regular contributers to be quite overbaring, to the point of being completely anally retentive.
Everyone who contributes is valuable to the BB and shouldn't be subjected to negative comments from a select few who seem to beleive they are the moral/interlectual guardians for the BB. Maybe they are I don't know what the structure for the BB is, if so suck on a valium mate.
I suggest that if you have nothing to add to a thread or any consructive criticisim simply control the urge and don't reply.
Keep the diversity of the BB going guys I do get a little more than bored reading "whether the R-13 is really the greatest clarinet for my daughter" etc...
My two cents worth.
p.s. my spelling is poor, I know.
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Author: Alison
Date: 2002-06-20 00:05
How many clarinetists does it take to change a lightbulb?
Just one - but it will take him all day to find just the right one.
Sorry, Brendan, but I suspect a bit of retentiveness/compulsiveness is just the nature of the beast!
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Author: Kirk
Date: 2002-06-20 00:11
Brendan,
Thanks a million for saying what I also have noticed and wondered how I could phrase it ! There are a few who think they may be above "us". But the fact is, that we all are all we are.
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Author: Roger the other one
Date: 2002-06-20 02:32
Well said Brendan ----
Might I suggest we keep the caustic comments to ourselves and keep the criticism constructive.
My Mother always told me that if I did not have anything nice to say I should keep my mouth shut --- maybee some here should have listened to Mom a bit more --- I still listen to my Mother and she is 88 years old.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-20 03:02
As a regualr myself, I can say that the cynical and sarcastic comments that *I* make personally are all in good humor and to keep the mood light, and absolutely NO members of this board that I know of think they are omniscient and are demeaning to the "less fortunate" on purpose. Everyone just takes it personally. I've sure had and done MY share.
Mark Charette, our ever friendly Webmaster, will be sure to tell individuals when they are getting out of hand. I trust his judgement. Though I do admit we're more anal-retentive than recently, I don't think we have too much to worry about yet.
BTW, Brendan, your spelling's nowhere near as bad as my typing...
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-06-20 03:16
You have an interesting point. There is one particularly sensitive area on this board on which you will almost certainly get called. That is the common habit of stating preferences or opinions as fact. Examples are "Brand A is the best clarinet on the market." or making sweeping statements based on extremely limited experience, training, or data.
"Most clarinet players prefer V-12's" is a risky statement unless you have real data to back it up. However, "Most of the clarinet players that I know prefer V-12's" may be perfectly acceptable. Even so, the latter statement may be influenced by a local mouthpiece preference or other dependent variable. These are common mistakes that most of us have probably made. The taste of crow has taught many of us to state opinions as such, while leaving room for someone else's equally valid experiences.
One final thought: While there is NEVER an excuse for rudeness, it is also important to learn to accept correction. Be bold . . . state your opinions . . . but reread your comments critically before you hit "Post".
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Author: John gibson
Date: 2002-06-20 03:43
....always be politically correct and sensitive to everyones diversity, never have an opinion even when asked, make sure it's a level playing field so all can reach the pinnacle of mediocrity...
BUT ABOVE ALL....REALIZE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THIS BILLBOARD THAT KNOW A LOT MORE THAN YOU. ACCEPT IT. ISN'T THAT WHY YOU ASK QUESTIONS? TO GET OPINIONS SO YOU CAN MAKE AN EDUCATED DECISION FROM THE DATA COLLECTED?
Oh yeah...take the trash out and clean your room! Or is that too much to ask? Grow up.
John
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-06-20 04:59
Actually, I thought the answer to the question "How many clarinet players does it take to change a lightbulb?" was:
Only one, but she/he has to go through a whole box of 10 before finding a good one.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-06-20 07:57
John Gibson's response is a good example of the problem (and I have no doubt it is a problem with this BB). Was his response in jest, or in earnest, or a mixture of the two? How can we tell? He doesn't know us, and we do not know him. We do not even know that much about each other's cultures, sub-cultures, life beliefs etc. In such circumstances it is always best to moderate language. It is perfectly possible to be robust without being rude. You can say you completely disagree with another contributor. That is better than saying the contributor is ignorant or ought to grow up etc.. If a joke is really intended then there are codes for that like: and so on.
But for my part, if John's response was in earnest, it does represent a bad side of poor etiquette on this BB, which otherwise is an excellent forum for information, maintaining interest, and plain good fun.
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Author: Joris van den Berg
Date: 2002-06-20 08:21
If I have to think an hour about every sentence I write; if somebody might be offended by it. Then it becomes to much of a hassle to even bother. Some of my greatest teacher weren't good at tactics. That's partly the reason they were good teachers, because they pinpointed every problem (and perhaps occasionally missing, but I'd take that for granted)
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-06-20 08:44
I suppose I'm a 'regular' contributor to this board, so I assume this criticism is directed, partially, at me.
I hope that I only respond to a thread when I've something relevant or (IMHO) amusing to add, based on my long experience as a clarinet player (35 yrs)
My sense of humour may not be to everyone's taste, but I hope that I've tried my best to address whatever problems people have broached and tried to provoke some interesting debate (that seems the hardest thing) I do hope that I never seem overbearing.
The thing that strikes me is that I can learn from other peoples experience, whether they are long established professionals or school-kids.
If you read the BB most days, Brendan, please let me know if you think I've made negative comments.
I agree about keeping the diversity going, but the thing I get bored with is the endless comparison of ligatures, surely the most irrelevant item of clarinet equipment?
jez
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-06-20 08:55
Maybe not an hour Joris, but a little time might be worth. I always re-read my text before hitting post. And it doesn't block me from being honest with firmly stating my opinion sometimes even if I know someone will strongly disagree. One important thing about a BB or email exchange: we use a written media in an "oral" form. We do tend to write the way we would speak but without having the immediate controversy of the people we are talking to that would allow us to re-phrase or explain a misleading comment. And when you hit post, what you "said" in a talkative way is actually written, recorded and archived. I think it is just courtesy to others to bare this in mind and take that little extra time before posting.
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-06-20 10:02
Hey Jez...which ligature do YOU use and why?
lol!
Brian
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-06-20 11:26
Brian,
I normally use a Gigliotti ligature because I find it easy to adjust and safe to change, but when I use my horrible yellow mouthpiece (take a look at www.ackermanmusic.co.uk Resin Mouthpieces) I can't resist a gold coloured Olegature. When we have a German conductor I use string to make him feel at home and for trying reeds I use a Fox Ratteree (I think) which is very minimalist.
jez
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-20 11:35
So...Brendan...would you mind explaining what anally retentive is? I've heard the term a lot in recent years but am not a doctor. I get the impression it refers to someone who is the constant butt of jokes, but I'm not certain about it.
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Author: Matt
Date: 2002-06-20 12:01
I'm not sure myself what the original comment was directed to.
Was it to the folks who point you to a previous subject coverage when the same question is asked for the 5th time? If so, the point of that is to try to get you to search the previous threads (a very simple task) before asking a question. Reduces bandwidth and saves computing resources. I've received a couple of those pointers myself through the first year that I was following this BB. As a result, a search is usually my first step before posting. Usually I find what I'm looking for.
Was this in response to the person who has asked the same question 3 times over the course of about 3 weeks? If so, I personally think the response was legitimate and correct.
Was it something else? Maybe the original poster here could enlighten us a little more succinctly.
Anyone who follows this BB realizes that this is probably the most civil BB around, as well as being one of the most informative. The points of some of these "anally-retentive" contributors (IMO) is an attempt to keep it that way. I appreciate those efforts. Yes, the BB has at very rare times had some "personality scuffles". Those are incredibly rare and usually resolve themselves over a few days.
Thanks to all, especially Mark, for this great site.
Matt
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-20 12:19
Matt...Very well said.
As a "regular" I will only add one more thought to the already insightful observations by some of the above writers (John, Stéphane, Bob, jez):
If one takes a haphazard "guess" at an established fact and it is incorrect, it should (and will) be corrected.
If you are not sure about a specific piece of information, OPEN A BOOK AND CHECK. There is no excuse for laziness...GBK
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-06-20 13:01
Let's keep it lively, and if that means being acerbic without getting personal, so what?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-06-20 14:28
Thank you, Mark C, for allowing this "discussion of our discussions-posts" . I pretty much echo the comments of jez, Stephane, Matt and GBK etc as to how to conduct ourselves here. At times I [and most of us?] don't have, or take, the time to carefully consider [and/or look up] what we have to contribute and how we say it, particularly if we tend to differ with previous posts. I do try to avoid being dogmatic, by use of IMO, IMHO, IMSHO, I suggest, etc, and seek other's opinions, experience/technically-based conclusions, etc [and thank them for it], even, like Davy Crockett ?said?, "When you know yer rite, go ahead!". I have the bad habit of [trying to] construct[ing] long sentences, but working as an engineer in the patent business has led me astray! Nuff fer now. Don
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Author: William
Date: 2002-06-20 14:54
I'm with Jez on this one--although I prefer the VD Optimum lig. :>)
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-06-20 15:14
(Brendan, I don't think you've ever been guilty of doing this, so the following is not directed at you.)
Hmm...and perhaps scientists have just discovered that the way you communicate changes the way others see you.
Directed to the younger set on the board: make sure your posts are articulate and that the tone of your post isn't overly juvenile.
This isn't a problem with most of the teemagers here, but I'm finding that the ones who do get "flamed" (for lack of a better word) are making posts with way too much slang, wacky punctuation (>%#$%>OMG!!!?%#%#$%#$%), really unhelpful topic names (Helpz pleez thnx!!!!) and other ways to make themselves seem juvenile, like picking dumb fights with other BB members and using superlatives. For example, if you come on here and say that your Bundy is the best clarinet in existance and that everyone who likes R-13s "sucks", you're defiantely not going to get as good of a erception as someone who says that Bundys have been the best clarinets FOR THEM and that they personally don't really prefer Buffets.
No offense to anyone in particular, but while this kind of writing might be acceptable on some Britney Spears BB, it probably isn't here. Know your audience: you're dealing with mostly adults here, and chances are that they can get irked by immaturity.
Seriously, try to be coherent in your posting. I know I really shouldn't be ranting about this (and knowing the way this board is sometimes, I might make a few enemies because of it), but I'm 16 myself and I manage to to write properly, so there's no reason why others can't.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-06-20 15:14
jez -
What's a Fox Ratteree? Some type of string?
How do the Ackerman resin mouthpieces play? Are they close to what they're trying to be duplicates of?
The late Everett Matson showed me a flourescent yellow German mouthpiece used regularly in the Chicago Symphony by his teacher, Ralph Lindemann.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Danette
Date: 2002-06-20 15:15
I have also found myself at the receiving end of some comments that were maybe not thought out.
What is the point/who is really helped if you take the attitude of "that's the way it is and if you don't like it, your a (fill in the blank)"? We may be here to ask and answer questions but as Fred stated several posts ago, there is never an excuse for rudeness.
Aren't we all hear to learn? Yes, there are ALOT of people here who know ALOT more than I do. (And I do mean ALOT) That doesn't make them better than me or smarter than me. It just means they've learned more than I have AT THIS POINT.
For most of the 'regulars'. Thank you! For the most part, you are a generous group and I thank from the tips of my toes for all you've done to help me and others on this board. Your opinions and playful banter are entertaining and do not fall under what this particular topic was all about.
:)
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-06-20 17:19
Ken Shaw,
The Ratteree is a ligature made by Fox, the people who most famously make plastic bassoons. It's only about 1/2 a centimetre wide and only touches the reed via 2 thin projections so contact is minimal. It's probably the only one I notice any real difference in the feel of when playing, I squeak more than usual. It is very free-blowing.
I'd say that Brian Ackermans mouthpiece copies are excellent, but thats on the basis of having only tried the one. It doesn't feel exactly the same, but let's say as close as 2 Vandorens of the same model. In some ways I prefer the copy to the original! The copy is moulded, but he adjusts the facing very accurately if necessary.
The resin is supposed to be less prone to damage than ebonite and I can't detect any difference in the way it feels.
jez
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-20 17:34
I could get to like somebody like you, Jacy; You took the words right out of my mouth.
BTW, jez, I like Rovners myself...
Don't you hate it when there two subjects evolve under the same posting?
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-06-20 19:21
David P.
Risking the possibility of 3 subjects evolving;
One thing to beware of with Rovners.
Don't leave it tightened up when you put your cl. away. The pressure exerted by the neoprene (or whatever) is immense & not entirely surrounding the mp. (the gap where the screw is) so I believe it can warp the rubber.
jez
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Author: Musak fre@k
Date: 2002-06-20 19:32
Jacy,
I haf ta agree w/ya on dat 1. Peoplez theze daz r using WAY TOO MUCH Slang!!!!!!!! YA go gurl !!!!!@#$%%@
Tanx fur re@din all of dis
Later
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-20 20:44
I noticed a slight warping on my contra mouthpeice that I bent back into shape over time. I wondered what might have caused it because that's what I end up doing with it. Thanx!
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Author: Brendan
Date: 2002-06-20 23:03
John Gibson: you have added a post that completeley validates this posting; is this flame bait are you simply rude?
I say anally retentive meaning a person who is so up tight that when they read something they disagree with the simple must put that person right without and thought of the manner of the posting or basic ettiquite in the reply. Personal attacks i.e. grow up are absolutley wrong without exception.
RULE OF THUMB: If you wouldn't say it to the persons face don't write it.
I am a 2nd Black Belt in Taekwondo. Would that make a differnce as to how you would speak to me as a stranger "in person"? My point being it is unlikely people would be outright rude face to face. Even if I only had a Black Belt in origami I would still expect polite behaviour from anyone I meet; including postings.
I'm not the world best Clarinet player, in fact I have only been learning for six months. I'm not the best TKD player after four and a half years I'm still learning.
However I do look up to more experienced people, but I only respect those who show restraint and poise in both fields.
You are never too old to be polite or change your manner.
Regards,
Brendan
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Author: Brendan
Date: 2002-06-20 23:06
I have been watching the World Cup on TV over the last two weeks. They use cards to warn players of their bahaviour or send them off. What do we do "here"?
Might be an idea worth looking into.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-21 00:08
Brendan wrote:
> What do we do "here"?
Things happen "behind the scenes" that only those involved are aware of. There's hardly ever a reason to make those kinds of things public.
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Author: Brendan
Date: 2002-06-21 01:46
Fair enough. What I meant was is there a "general" & accessable code of conduct for the BB?
I agree in that no-one else needs to know of action/s that may occur.
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Author: Karel
Date: 2002-06-21 02:42
I am curious to know what has caused Brendan so much anguish. Considering the amount of comment on the topic, I think it would be nice of Brendan to be specific about the cause of his ire.
Karel.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-06-21 03:30
For me, I find when writing/preparing posts I spend a ridiculous amount of time and energy carefully wording my thoughts so as not to offend anyone or make people to feel slighted just because I know more on the subject than they do. I often feel pressured to qualify everything I write and be PC...it can be extremely frustrating when trying to help another player with an issue, contribute to a topic or explain my philosophies on clarinet playing. This BB for me is like a treasured friend and is the most civil and productive discussion on the www. Many of the so-called snooty regular posters here wouldn't win a diplomacy award. But most ARE top-notched, experienced industry professionals who graciously invest their time sharing invaluable insight, tips, secrets and short cuts on clarinet playing (in every idiom) all for the price of a mouse click...information they could easily charge for in a lesson.
When the clarinet mom or beginner of any age seeks this BB for advice on what instrument to buy the advice offered and the soul that takes the time to respond could and does "change lives" for the better, potentionally save the parent/guardian $100s and make the difference between a good buy or getting taken on a bad one. I'd say that simple contribution on a simple inquiry takes precedence over someone being bored with a topic/thread...OTHERS.
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-06-21 05:07
Hate to come off as a bit incendiary with all else in consideration, but where's Anji been lately?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-06-21 11:18
Anji is alive and well on ebay; but, along with MW, have been opting to not post on the bb. Tremendous losses . . .
You don't have to agree with someone all the time to learn from them. Heck, give me 24hrs and I might not agree with myself.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-21 14:41
I left for about six months myself last year because I needed a "vacation", and when I came back several of the regulars had slowed down on their posting or left entirely. I was rather disappointed, too.
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2002-06-21 21:53
I can't believe I read this far...
In my honest and most sincere voice:
It sounds like neither "regular" nor "non-regular" posters are
going to agree. Human nature causes us to have questions as
well as offer answers when we know the answers. Since "tone
of voice" can not be expressed through typing, it is difficult
to get a realistic idea across without the possiblity of
offending someone else. The way I try to read and respond to
this board is with an open mind and understanding that a
wide variety of knowledge of the subject as well as personalities
appear within the mix. It seems to me that it depends on the
"attitude" that one brings to the board that determines the kind
of questions or responses one might post. In my honest opinion
if we approach the board with an open mind, fewer people will
offend and fewer people will be offended.
Here's to a great communication board!
*Cheers*
Kristen D.
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-06-21 22:21
Brendan....
I could care less how many black belts you have....I would say to you in person anything I would write.
You my friend(?) need to lighten up. You are the one that's inciting and looking "for a fight".
My initial response was to show the absurdity of political correctness and all the BS that goes with it.
This board is responded to by people that know what they're talking about and if you don't like the way they "teach" when you ask a question, I suggest you do your research at a library where you can ;pick and choose the info you want.
As for GRAHAM. Sir, I do not consider myself part of the so called "problem" with the billboard. Matter of fact I don't think there is a problem with the billboard, with the exception of those who are so anally retentive that they can't see beyond their own
silly sensitivities.
I am not nor will I ever be politically correct. I will however be honest and forthcoming in answering or asking questions pertaining to music, the clarinet, equipment, technique.
I am not understanding all the whining on the board lately. Perhaps someone can explain. I'd like to know. Thanks.
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-21 23:42
John Gibson wrote:
>
> I am not understanding all the whining on the board lately.
> Perhaps someone can explain.
John,
Your post looked awfully close to what you're complaining about ...
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Author: Karel
Date: 2002-06-22 02:56
Brendan, can you re-define "anally retentive" please; I think that while editing your post you managed to edit out the meaning as well. You certainly did manage to set the cat among the pigeons, so to speak. Very rarely have I seen so much hostility on a thread in this BB. I do hope that was not your intent. This has been, and is, a great BB with a wide range of opinions on a huge range of topics. It would be a shame if contributors, often the "regulars", were to stop expressing an opinion for fear of damaging someone's oversensitive psyche.
Karel.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-22 14:06
Karel wrote:
> It would be a shame if
> contributors, often the "regulars", were to stop expressing an
> opinion for fear of damaging someone's oversensitive psyche.
And the opposite (which has occurred) - regulars who quit because of oversensitivity to what others write. If you write enough postings, you're bound to get someone upset at you. That's the way it is.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-22 15:03
IMO, I think Kristen D. and Mark C. have hit this one on the spot. Regualrs and non-regulars just never really have agreed on anything.
But now I have a question; how do we define a "regular"? As someone who constantly posts and checks the board daily? Somebody whose name you recognize immediately when you see it in a posting? Someone who's mentioned by other members? Someone who's been posting for
It doesn't really matter, but different types of "regulars" react differently.
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Author: Brendan
Date: 2002-06-24 01:31
Last post from myself on the issue.
John: No I'm not looking for a fight, I never have and I never will, or an arguement as such (This post was never meant as flame baite!).
John FYI in TKD we teach that fighting is unacceptable unless under real physical threat. I used the example of my TKD background to point out that it is quite easy to be blunt/rude on BB's etc... but (form most) being rude face to face isn't such a simple act.
Obviously people won't always agree on issues and rightly so. Everybody has their own point of view and has a right to debate or negatiate with someone who disagrees with their opinion.
I hope that the original post has made people think a little before we hit the "post" button. However I will reiterate that if comments are personal i.e. grow up there is a problem, there is no excuse and such posts are what I was refering to initially.
Thank you to all those who contribute to any and all posts even those of us who are a little "blunt" at times.
Regards,
Brendan
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Author: Carol
Date: 2002-06-24 07:36
Brendan wrote:
> Everybody has their own point of view and has a right to
> debate or negatiate with someone who disagrees with their opinion.
Except for "the regulars" that disagree with Brendan.
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Author: eduard vanderGraf
Date: 2002-06-24 13:05
We all know that Buffet has the market share, and try to wedge a thought in the mire of the moB about to bat you over the head becuase you said a note here was flat has been seen....your in THOUGHT CONTROL CENTRAL.....YOU WON'T GET OUT ALIVE BUT FREEDOM EXISTS EXISTENTIALLY AT LEAST AAARGGGGGHHHGGHGHGH
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-06-24 13:34
Mark C wrote:
"And the opposite (which has occurred) - regulars who quit because of oversensitivity to what others write. If you write enough postings, you're bound to get someone upset at you. That's the way it is."
Oversensitivity seems to have become a national pasttime here in the U.S.. Every time I turn around, some one or some group is finding offense where none was ever intended. And in many instances, entire traditions are scrapped because one person said they were "offended". The U.S. thereby elevates disagreement (politically acceptable) to the level of "offended" (not politically correct). I don't see other members of the world community engaging in such idiocy. ( . . . speaker gets off soapbox.)
Being offended is not the same thing as disagreement. I don't find disagreement to be a negative thing on the bb. For example, I believe most responders to the issue of clarinets being "blown out" do not believe in the phenomena. However, Peter Spriggs and Greg Smith do believe in it. This boy doesn't have the talent or experience to say these guys are "wrong" . . . do you?
Perhaps both positions are "right" in their own context. I might feel like the luckiest guy alive to get one of Greg's "blown out" clarinets because it might be better than anything I've ever played. After all, Greg's clarinets are undoubtedly superb to begin with and tweaked upward from there. So perhaps Greg notices a 5% decrease in optimization that cannot be restored. I've never needed that 5% and never will. So he experiences blow-out while I see no evidence of it. (So, Greg . . . what are you going to do with your next blown-out clarinet?)
We could, of course, form alliances of believers and shun each other's positions, but that would bring clarinet players down to the level of political parties.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-24 18:12
I also have a black belt. It's woven elastic and I like it because it expands with my waistline.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-06-25 00:57
I do not have a black belt, nor a brown belt, but I do eat "AllBran", and therefore am too regular to be "annal retentative".
Bob A
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-06-25 02:24
I guess that's what they mean by "regular" Post-ers.
( . . . or is that Kelloggers?)
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2002-06-25 17:01
Bob: Love it!
Bob Arney: Even better!
Fred: Great! Best ri(post)e of the week!
Todd W. (ROTFLOL!)
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-25 19:36
It's good to joke around now and then, isn't it??
Wow, that's seven times I've replied on this topic. I need to shut my trap now...
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Author: Cindy
Date: 2002-07-17 07:09
um, I've been coming here a while, and the only hint I get that some people here are old and omnicint rather than just well educated teens is that 1) they make fun of themselves, and 2) the make comments about dentures coming loose. Also, just because they are regulars doesn't mean they know all. Nor does being a non regular mean you know nothing. So how can the true distinction be drawn as to who is acting all knowing, if anyone is?
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The Clarinet Pages
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