 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-18 15:29
Years ago,it seems,string was used rather than cork for tenons and today cork seems to be the standard. As an amateur clarinet do-it-yourselfer it would seem that string wrapping is still viable. What are the pros and cons re string vs cork?
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Author: Joe O'Kelly
Date: 2002-06-18 15:42
Funny you mention this. I just wraped my Eb tennons in string. It went on very easily and worked fairly well. In the long run the compression of the string might ware down and need another layer of string.I used the same methoods of tying the string on as double reed players use for tying on reeds.
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Author: Eddie Ashton
Date: 2002-06-18 17:35
I would say that string (I assume we're talking waxed thread) is not as easy to apply correctly, with more risk of air leakage on what may appear to be a perfectly good joint. On the other hand, it has a distinct mechanical advantage over cork where it can lend substantial support to a tenon which is subject to distortion caused by inadvertant knocks etc. Cork does nothing here.
All the same, I hope it doesn't come back into fashion. I hate binding tenons!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-18 19:30
The reason some woodwind instrument tenons (still) have grooves in them today is that it's a throwback to the days when string was in common use. We're slow to change, catch up with new technology. The grooves serve no good purpose for anything but string wound tenons. Cork adhesive gives better overall contact without the grooves. See if you can figure that one out :] Whether cork, when applied correctly, is more maintenance and trouble free than thread is still open to discussion but its widespread usage today speaks loudly in its favor.
For tenon binding, I like heavy thread because you can determine better if and where you need to build up the wrapping to make a good seal. It's fine when wound evenly but I find I have a little more wiggle room for adjustment with thread than with heavier string. Some people prefer floss. However, with any kind of binding I like to add a little cork grease as I wind - it helps keep the binding in place. The object is to make a fairly air tight seal; anything that will do that and hold up during reasonable usage is fine. The greatest advantage for string or thread is that it's generally more available to the average citizen than tenon cork sheets and easier for most do-it-yourselfers to apply.
The greatest plus for string is: it's great for Emergencies
When you factor the time to wind string vs. gluing and sanding cork the cost/time factor (in minutes) is probably about the same.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-18 22:27
Thanks all. I would imagine that if one were to wax the string with beeswax it would help. And,of course, there are all kinds of string. I hadn't thought about the extra advantage of support to the tenon...but it sure makes sense. My father had taught me the tying trick..I guess it's the same as used for tying flys for fly casting...and also for "hangman's noose"..Someone had recently advised someone else here that a loose middle joint might be due to the wood adjacent to the cork having been sanded down a little. One could extend the string over that area and solve that problem too...I guess.
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Author: David L Morris
Date: 2002-06-18 22:38
as one of the do-it-yourselfers i have found string to be used over the cork on tenon joints. I allways thought it was to put off having the cork job done.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-19 11:28
Somebody once led me to believe that thread was used on tenons when musicians got more mobile through different climates. The thread was seen to be more adjustable - just add or remove a few turns to adjust to changes in the fit of the tenon. Whether it is true I don't know.
Thread is stoill reasonably common on bassoons. I find it detestably time consuming to make adjustments, or replace it when foul cork grease perishes it. It certainly has nowhere near the resilience of good cork. The white, teflon, plumbers, thread tape is an acceptable alternative to string, and would probably make string function a lot better with a layer of it over the string instead of cork grease. It is also good for building up a loose tenon cork.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-19 14:33
I've tried the plumbers teflon tape,Gordon,but it seems to want to push "up". Maybe my cork was still too large. The tape certainly requires the twisting assembly motion
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Author: Eddie ashton
Date: 2002-06-19 16:50
Thread binding on bassoon tenons is mandatory for the very reason I mentioned above. The wood at the tenon ends of a bassoon is so thin and vulnerable (and it's Maple not grenadilla) but this is not so much the case with a clarinet. I share your detestation Gordon and therefore get round the problem in the following manner.
Using plain thread, tightly bind the tenon with just a few turns and run superglue into the thread. This instantly solidifiies the thread-turns and supports the tenon in a manner more akin to it being wired. Then cork over this in the normal way, thus achieving the best of both worlds. This is obviously not obligatory on the smaller and stronger joint of a clarinet but is a usefull way to repair and support a tenon which has split due to trauma but is still in place and intact.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-06-20 10:06
I string quite a lot of tenons for money of course and the love of beeswax. You get a fair sized callous on your thumb especially if you use polyester/dacron type thread. Fox use a proprietry nylon thread and I have seen a couple of old Heckels that had the original wrappings in tact and they seem to be cotton or hemp.
On bassoons wrapping tenons makes the horn feel a bit more live and certainly more flexible. Corked tenons are not as flexible but increase the volume slightly. For somebody using a long bore horn and playing 2nd bassoon where low register is used more often I prefer cork but that is just me.
I think on a blackwood clarinet you are wasting your time but on a rosewood or boxwood horn you may get some effect. A physicist would probably tell you this is all crap though.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-20 11:21
Beeswax is one of those magical natural products that I admire
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-20 14:08
Bob, the tenon cork prob ably needs to be well cleaned and the teflon wrapped as tight as possible without breaking. And yes, the cork was possibly still too large. Once the tape is established it seems to last well, even without a screw-on action for assembly. From customers' instruments I've seen it seems to be good for taking up slack between the timber parts of a tenon at the inner end of the tenon.
Eddie, unless there is a glue involved (as you do) I cannot see how binding saves a bassoon tenon from damage. It would only reinforce against damage from WITHIN the instrumnet, which the instrument is not really subject to. Tenons are damaged by localized knocks to the OUTSIDE of part of the tenon, or from pressure to the outside by 'bending' the instrument while it is assembled. The binding does not provide a protective force to oppose abusive forces from outside the instrument.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-20 15:41
Thanks again. I could see where the string on the bassoon tenon might help to distribute the force from an external blow?!
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-11-30 19:18
Corks that are either too tight or too loose have been a major challenge to me. Used clarinets are often next to impossible to separate when first acquired. Shortly after sanding them and playing them they become so loose that I often have to recork them. The possibilities of thread seem promising. Does anyone here still use thread ? Does anyone use leather or is that even possible ? Can hardened cork on vintage clarinets be softened ?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-11-30 20:00
On the mouthpiece tenon, properly sized O rings work well. Brad Behn and Maxton use them as standard on many of their mouthpieces. So would O rings work just as well to seal joint tenons? Has anyone tried them?
Post Edited (2018-12-01 04:21)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-12-01 03:33
Good quality cork (admittedly getting harder to acquire), properly applied and adjusted, and then properly and regularly lubricated using a high quality cork grease (no mineral oils or greases in the mix !!) can last for many many years.
I can get 20+ years out of a tenon cork.
Why change a trusted and tried design.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-01 08:46
I recently paid $15.75 for a small slab of cork for a single tenon. Im not looking forward to the sanding and the mess it makes . When I add the time and gas to buy it I wonder if it is really worth it. I do quite a bit of crafting so I have bins full of leather and thread. I plan to at least try using what I already have at hand. I think waxed leather might do the job quite nicely.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-12-02 05:27
If you choose the appropriate thickness of cork, then the amount of sanding required should be minimal.
For most clarinets the use of 1.6 mm cork is pretty standard, with just occasionally a deeper tenon needing 2mm or a more shallow tenon (often on the bell section) using 1 mm.
Most repairers have a bench peg to support the joint and use a strip of snad paper (or better still open weave abrasive paper) about the width of the tenon cork. using this technique the time should be just afew minutes per tenon.
$15.75 for a small slab does sound quite expensive.
Most commercial cork is sold in 6" x 4" pieces, enough for quite a few tenons.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-12-02 10:11
I've used string and even thread at various times over the years. My favorite is to use cotton thread wrapped around the old, compressed cork. I wrap it...and cork grease it as I build up the layers of thread necessary to get the fit. It makes a great, tight fit over old, compressed cork.
I've found this solution to be pretty long-lasting, but when it starts to "go" - it can be a tangled mess to remove before adding new thread on.
I've tried just straight thread (no cork underneath), and I wasn't happy with the results. The thread would move around too much and wouldn't last long enough to warrant the work.
On a handful of occasions, a piece of string (and in one case, yarn) got me or a friend out of an emergency during a performance...though there are many other solutions which are perhaps more preferable for the majority of folks. I've always liked the string/thread/yarn solution for emergencies because it requires no heat, glue, or careful wrapping (like teflon tape) - AND it's super easy to remove if used only as an emergency fix.
Ever since reading earlier posts by Seabreeze about using o-rings, I've meant to test that idea out...just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Fuzzy
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-12-03 03:30
I must admit I was not impressed with the way she sanded the cork.
Firstly it is better to smooth out the area where the beveled edges meet with a sanding stick (an emery nail file works fine).
Secondly one should lightly bevel along both inner and outer edges of the strip before gluing it into the tenon.
Thirdly, sanding by using a bench peg to support the end of the joint against the bench allows a much more even and better finish.
OK I admit that when I trained under one of the country's finest repairers, then doing the best job possible was the only acceptable result.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-03 18:29
About 36 hours ago I bought an excellent Yamaha YCL 24 clarinet.One of the first things I noticed about it was that the tenon corks were perfectly flat.All of my other clarinets came with rounded tenon corks so when I corked tenons I duplicated the rounded finish. When assembled the Yamaha holds together firmly with almost no wobble. It separates easily without force. I thought the flat corks would make separation harder. The opposite seems true. With rounded corks holding force would be greatest at the peak and tenons could wobble more easily than if properly squared.I am wondering if rounded corks are the cause of so many clarinets being hard to separate. In future I plan to sand with sandpaper glued to a wood bar in hopes of duplicating the Yamaha experience.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-03 20:29
String is frequently used for bagpipes. It compresses and becomes loose just like cork, but of course is a little quicker to replace.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-05 05:23
Caroline,
I agree with your comments...certainly, I always pre-bevel and level the glue joint (with an emery file from the beauty department), but I use the same technique with a strip of sandpaper and pulling through. I generally wrap it about 1/3 of the way around, secure it with a thumb and pull through...this is to reduce the 'belly' diameter once everything else is round and perfect. She did seem a little 'slap-dash' about it, but the basic technique is useful. Until I figured out about the tape backing, I was always frustrated by tearing the strips.
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-05 06:05
My first attempt to string a tenon was a failure. The chosen string was too thick and would not compress. A thin gauge of tooling leather was a rapid success. There is no wobble in the tenon and the seal is good. Seperation was almost too easy. Next time I'll try a slightly thicker gauge.
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