 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: pentamus
Date: 2002-06-16 15:28
why is it that clarinet players can drink copious amounts of alcohol before concerts and then play brilliantly in the performance, I am worried about the effect it has on young professionals.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2002-06-16 16:07
I agree with Bob!! In fact, with my own playing, it is often true for the reverse--the more alcohol the audience consumes, the better I sound.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Todd
Date: 2002-06-16 16:17
I've tried practicing at home while relaxing with a glass of wine. My technique and finger control went out the window. I also seemed to have less lung capacity. After this, I know I could not drink alcohol the day of a performance.
My drink of choice before a recital is Diet 7-up--lots of carbonation to settle a jittery stomach. Fortunately I've never burped into my clarinet during the performance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pentamus
Date: 2002-06-16 16:19
Bob I have first hand exprience with this as a young pro who is playing in the pro orchestras in the UK, I dont drink before concerts but have played in alot of sections were the principles do have a few drinks in the artists bar before the concert, this is not just wind players but also brass players if not most of the orchestra. These are brilliant players.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-16 17:07
>a few drinks
Aha...I didn't consider such necessarily "copius". And maybe there is a difference between a brilliant player and brilliant sound.
Certainly there is ample evidence that alcohol in the blood affects coordination...at least that's what the law in the U.s. holds.
Also, it is well known that one's reaction to alcohol is partially a function of body weight. If the brilliant players you are familiar with are Brahms lookalikes perhaps a few drinks don't affect them as much ....as they would affect you. A statistically valid sampling and testing would be interesting. Too...one's own evaluation of one's own "brilliance" can be misleading after alcohol consumption, as I have experienced at a few cocktail parties..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-16 17:48
A VERY BRIEF list of musicians dying of alcoholism, or with alcohol as a major contributing factor:
Coleman Hawkins
Bix Beiderbecke
Lester Young
Bunny Berigan
John Coltrane
Bud Powell
Charlie Parker
Stan Getz
Bessie Smith
Buddy Bolden
Freddie Keppard
James Moody
How about some composers?
Mussorgsky
Glazunov
Rachmaninoff
Johann Beethoven (Ludwig's father)
Those names are just off the top of my head. I'm sure I am leaving many out. With some reasearch, the list would be almost too long to notate...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mandy
Date: 2002-06-16 18:06
The wind band I occasionaly play with always have a glass of wine halfway through each rehearsal,there is always a choice of a nice red or a palatable white, all very civilized.The second half of the rehearsal always goes better than the first,wonder why?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: beejay
Date: 2002-06-16 18:30
I thought players of large brass instruments were great consumers of beer. So would I be if I had to blow a euphonium.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 21:41
GBK wrote:
>
> A VERY BRIEF list of musicians dying of alcoholism, or
> with alcohol as a major contributing factor:
>
> Coleman Hawkins
> Bix Beiderbecke
> Lester Young
> Bunny Berigan
> John Coltrane
> Bud Powell
> Charlie Parker
> Stan Getz
> Bessie Smith
> Buddy Bolden
> Freddie Keppard
> James Moody
>
> How about some composers?
>
> Mussorgsky
> Glazunov
> Rachmaninoff
> Johann Beethoven (Ludwig's father)
>
> Those names are just off the top of my head. I'm sure I am
> leaving many out. With some reasearch, the list would be almost
> too long to notate...GBK
But would the list of musicians <b>not</b> dying of alchoholism be longer? Does the fact that jazz musicians play most often in bars contribuite to the problem?
As for orchestral musicians, my educated guess would be about the same as the rest of the people in the same socio-economic group.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kat
Date: 2002-06-17 00:03
Beejay, my husband plays tuba and says he CANNOT play even after one beer. He says his lips go numb. Incidentally, he does have a relatively high tolerance for alcohol in general. Sometimes I'll have a little nip of something hard before a show. When I've done this, I've been at least a little less self-conscious than usual, and in my mind that makes my performances SEEM to go better. I have no idea what the audience hears. When I say "little nip" I mean two SIPS max, of a brandy-ish type Eastern European liqueur.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-06-17 00:53
Kat, that Slivovitz will kill yah! Numb your lips, warp your reed and in general make Acker Bilk sound very very good. "2 SIPS"?
Bob A
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-06-17 02:32
I've always found it interesting that when we're on tour, especially backstage at halls in England and other locales in Europe, drinks are served up as a matter of course at the concert hall's backstage bar. I've never been there before a concert to see if the local orchestra has a few players that have "tipped a few" before going on. But it perhaps reflects a different attitude socially about the prescence of alcohol amongst orchestra members in different societies.
Gregory Smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Simone
Date: 2002-06-17 02:50
Well I personally have never drinked before performing (might have something to do with me being to young!) but anyways I heard that the more fit you are the less the affect alcohol has on you. This is because the more mulsclar you are the more blood vessels you need so there is more blood for the alchohol to dilute. If you are not in shape, the extra fat diplaces the blood so you get drunk quicker.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-06-17 10:34
Almost all England soccer supporters seem to drink beer before entering gate.
Asian people are obviously weaker to alcohol, that's why we get ill before becoming mad.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-06-17 10:37
One thing I forgot. What about the conductors? Do they drink?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David
Date: 2002-06-17 10:40
...doesn't mix. Get loaded in the Green Room, and that walk to the stage may seem way longer than you remember.
And even after listening to you play with undiminished brilliance, the pottery night class two doors down the street will still be wondering what the deal with the noisy penguin is.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2002-06-17 16:11
It seems to be a particular part of the British professional music scene. There is a drinking culture amongst wind and brass here. Whether this is more boasting than actual doing is debatable, but a lot of alcohol is drunk around professional performances. It certainly would not do for me, but I have not practiced with drink (and have no wish to do so). Of course, amateurs do not face the pressures of the professional player. If a brass player is suffering from anxiety and poor confidence he/she is perhaps more likely to split a note than if under the influence of alcohol.
And for Hiroshi, yes there are stories of well oiled conductors making it up to the podium.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kat
Date: 2002-06-17 16:15
2 sips of slivovitz isn't really that much, Bob!  Small sips, to be sure!
Hiroshi-while I was at Oberlin, we performed a piece by a famous composer/conductor. He came to conduct the piece. During rehearsals the couple of days before the performance, the first-desk string players all said he stank for alcohol. At the concert, there was a moment with a grand pause. HE CUED US A WHOLE MEASURE EARLY!!!! The string players said he didn't smell for alcohol at all during the performance. Guess for HIM, it was necessary. Probably he needs a good 12-step program anyhow!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kat
Date: 2002-06-17 16:16
And by the way, Bob A., the slivovitz is usually after the show...it's the Czech Becherovka before!
And I am talking about shows where we're playing Eastern European FOLK music also...if it were a classical show, I'd stay away from the booze...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-06-17 17:57
Chet Baker was rumored to be unable to play when he *wasn't* drunk. Louis Armstrong spent more hours of his life high on pot than not high. The entire New York Philharmonic low brass section in the 1950s (particularly the principal trombone, Nathan Pulis, and the tuba player, Big Bill Bell) were said to play most concerts drunk. The famous flutist William Kincaid was known as a hopeless alcoholic, but he never got drunk until after a concert.
And, from the sublime to the ridiculous, my sax embouchure (at least for shows) is always too tight until I have a couple of beers.
Best (hic) regards.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2002-06-17 18:58
Oh, I know and have known several different classical instrumentalists who are admitted alcoholics that drink heavilly - but only after a concert. Not sure if they're pickled when playing though. I suppose that the half life of enough alcohol post-concert could keep someone under the influence 24/7 though. I don't know for sure but often wonder.
Gregory Smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-17 19:34
In my opinion, if you can't operate a motor vehicle competently after too many snorts, what makes anyone think playing a musical instrument (or conducting) would be different? I think, according to the topic here, we're talking about being bombed. Alcohol abuse, overindulgence, unable to walk a straight line - how's anyone gonna play their best in that state? On the job, whatever the job, is the wrong time, wrong place in my estimation.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-17 20:30
Top 6 Signs That You Have An Alcohol Problem:
6. You nickname your Bb and A clarinets "barley" and "hops"
5. You don't recognize your conductor unless seen through the bottom of a glass.
4. For some reason, "starting at the next barline" always makes you thirsty.
3. The entire woodwind section all have exact twins.
2. You lose arguments with your music stand.
1. 24 hours in a day / 24 beers in a case: Not a coincidence! ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mike
Date: 2002-06-18 00:10
A couple of comments on GBK's list of players dying of alcoholism or alcohol related problems:
Bessie Smith died from injuries she received in a car crash. I don't recall ever reading that drunk driving was involved.
John Coltrane died of liver cancer. I don't know if he was an alcoholic or not, but I'm not sure there is that strong a link between alcohol and liver cancer.
Getz also died of cancer. Though for many of the jazz players you list, you'd have to indict the whole lifestyle.
James Moody is still very much alive. Or, at least, I had not heard that he had died!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-18 00:33
Love your list, GBK :] May I use it in my next lecture?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Andy
Date: 2002-06-18 01:16
Webern died after lighting a cigarette in the dark near an american solider just after the end of WWII.
Mussosgsky died a drunk in the gutter.
Which one is the more tragic of the deaths? One lived a happy life till the end which came all to soon by a mistake, the other wasted much of his life?
A lecture I heard by Michael Mulchahy of the Chicago Symphony talked of always being able to give your best, NOBODY can do that under the influence of alcohol. Sure go out and have a drink or four after the gig, but not because you need it, because you want to enjoy it.
Greg Smith might be able to correct me here, but I seem to remember the previous Principal Trumpet of Chicago while being an amazing player and lasting (i think) nearly 50 years in the job, did enjoy good wine. No he didn't go and get "pissed" before or after gigs, but he enjoyed the finer things in life - great music and tasty wine, and it would seem to me that his life is much more admirable for these acts then Mussorgsky's
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mike
Date: 2002-06-18 01:59
I was taking issue with the statement "A VERY BRIEF list of musicians dying of alcoholism, or with alcohol as a major contributing factor". As such, I stand by what I wrote.
As Bessie Smith died in a car wreck when she wasn't even driving, the fact that she was an alcoholic is irrelevant to how she died.
Similarly with Coltrane. He certainly did battle alcohol and drugs. But he died of liver cancer, which is hard to detect until it is terminal. The blanket statement that 'he died of complications of his lifelong drug and alcohol addiction,' does not provide any causal link between his lifestyle and the cancer. Coltrane wrote of a "spiritual awakening" in 1957, whereupon he kicked his narcotics addiction. I don't know if he gave up alcohol at the same time. Would he have died of liver cancer at the age of 39 if he had never touched a drop of alcohol or tried heroin? That's not possible to answer.
And, as difficult as Moody's battles with alcohol and drugs have been, he IS still with us. You statement says that he is dead, with alcohol being at least a major factor in his death.
Now, I'm not arguing that drugs and alcohol have not damaged and shortened the careers of many great musicians. But that's not what you said.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dr. Jacob Mathias
Date: 2002-06-18 02:55
Apparently a good deal of drinking went on in the cleveland orchestra with players before rehearsals...of course 25 years ago we all knew society was quite different, and many people would smoke as well even if they were a wind player. A very famous conductor who was a terrible alcoholic was barbirolli as I personally knew a clarinetist who worked under him. Mind you he didn't suffer from the temper of people like Toscannini who probably should have drank! Unfortunately, we tend to also see things in a very politically correct way these days, but, underneath people have their weaknesses and demons they deal with. Sadly the problems today are as prevelant today as 40 years ago and I have seen in rehearsals players having a drink and returning and this by people who one would think that knew this does nothing to improve playing and what not. I myself am a medical practictioner and play clarinet in a semi amateur group, i find the pro players drink far more than the amateurs....Barborolli couldn't face breakfast without a scotch yet he lived a ripe old age...wasn't Webern shot accidentally?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dr. Jacob Mathias
Date: 2002-06-18 03:13
Yes Webern was shot by an american GI in 45 after hostilities ended but I remember hearing nothing abut whether he had the cigarette before the shot or while in his death throes...Klaus Tennstedt was also known to knock back a few and smoke like a trooper...Karajan also spent alot of time drinking undiluted vodka yet he lived to 88, and Berstein drank and smoke so heavily that players at the end of his career thought he was half dead....Pierre Monteux was a moderate drinker of a glass of wine daily...Otto Klemperer was known to go nowhere without a lit pipe...he lived an awfully long time....out in Finland Sibelius drank Helsinki dry...Mozart drank a good deal and died of a result of drinking impure and poisonous wine..brights disease ensued.....our dear freind Carl Maria von Weber accidnetally drank a glass of mercury(who knows why we have all those apreggios?)....but in all seriousness moderate consumption is fine and if one is responsible then no one should harbour guilt...alcoholism is prevelant and whether or not you have one or two drinks an alcoholic is an alcoholic.....on the other side: in fact red wine has been proven to have anti oxidents ,and ,if consumed moderately, can lower blood pressure...check standard medical texts in the last 2 years....Harvard Med. Jopurnal found french men who drink a glass of wine of day had lower blood cholestral levels compared to their north american equivelants...this out of a population of 10,0000 men studied.....Russia seems to boast the highest alcohol abuse in the world.......for a full study go to the internet and look under alcoholism....smoking is also a really bad habit and has no known benefit...a light or moderate consumption of alcohol seems safe except in the hand of those who can't control their drinking....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-18 03:20
Very informative, Dr. Mathias. I believe that might add fuel to the fire here.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-06-18 04:52
There is such a person as a "functional alcoholic." My late mother was one. (No, she was not a musician!) For well over 20 years this 140 pound woman consumed 2 six packs of beer (12 oz cans) and half of a quart bottle of 80 proof hard stuff every day. During this time she worked full time as a bookeeper in a real estate office (for the same company for 24 years) kept her house extremely clean, was involved in community groups, drove a car (never cited for anything, and never had an accident) and raised 2 kids. She went into crisis only when the alcohol finally surpressed her appetite to the point of malnutrition. (A friend of mine found her wandering the streets unable to find her house.) She also managed to hide her drinking from her friends, co-workers, and even her Doctor!
I learned from her re-hab center that this is not an uncommon pattern, especially among middle age women.
She did manage to stay sober after her crisis, only to die of cancer 4 years later at the age of 60.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eileen
Date: 2002-06-18 05:28
I remember drinking before marching band and pep band but that wasn't exactly music that required much concentration!
A related question I have is why is it always wind players at the bar before or after and so rarely a string player? At least in the orchestras I've played with.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jabber
Date: 2002-06-18 06:36
A little digression to soothe the soul: In one concert our principal cellist brought a cup of Starbuck's Coffee on stage which she sat next to her chair. She played fairly average as usual. LOL!!!
That concludes my little digression for this topic!
Good Day!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-06-18 09:01
Another little disgression, but there is a STRONG link between alcohol abuse and liver cancer. Liver is the first organ to be badly damaged from alcohol abuse and in most cases that ends with a cancer. On this highly positive and encouraging note, I am going back to my clarinetting!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-18 15:47
Oh what fun. I really got a chuckle out of "Toscanini should have"...maybe he did after he married off his daughter. There is a high correlation between intercourse and pregnancy too but not 99%.
Kat: thanks for the memory of the Becherovka..now if I could just find a way to pack those thin bottles so I could get them home without breaking.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mike
Date: 2002-06-20 16:16
Ok, I will modify my statement on correlation between alcohol abuse and liver cancer. About 5% of diagnosed cases of cirrhosis of the liver result in liver cancer. This is quite high, especially as a primary cancer. Most liver cancers (in the US, over 95%) are secondary tumor sites.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DLE
Date: 2002-06-25 23:34
Oh fun - or not, depending on what way you look at it.
Anyway, I'm British by the way. Yes, the orchestras do drink, but not as a rule. Each person is an individual and should make his or her decision on it. As for string players, they generally don't drink for several reasons including:
1. It affects their, hand positioning and vision - keep a stringed instrument in tune requires pinpoint accuracy compared with fingers over holes of the clarinet.
2. Many are lightweights and simply can't take the booze.
As for conductors, very recently my chamber choir conductor had a bottle of wine during the interval of a concert. Though she was a bit sluggish in the second half, she did sufficiently entertain the audience and keep hold of the baton - and even did a barbershop number for us at last minute - now there was a sight! But, I wouldn't recommend she do it again in a more formal setting. (This one was infromal, hence the barbershop number - sorry bbshop people)
I drink more than I should, but never play the clarinet when I have been drinking. I can't anyway, my throat has to feel right (I'm very fussy about conditions).
As for alcoholics who are also clarinettists, it is unfortunate. But, it's still not impossible to be a good clarinettist (As previous examples have shown) so don't give up!
BTW, You can add Chopin to the list of composers, who drank himself to death I think - hence the madness of his late piano writing, and the letters to others from him about getting inspiration from the bottle (Very dramatic and potent writing actually, even when translated). BTW, if this is wrong please tell me, my memory is not that reliable these days - and no I haven't been drinking!
Alcohol and cancer/disease, not as bad as smoking I don't think...
DLE.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2002-06-26 02:40
DLE...Chopin died of tuberculosis.
If he used alcohol in his life as an inspiration, I doubt that it was a serious factor in his demise...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
