 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Katie
Date: 2002-06-07 15:40
Hi, I'm searching for clarinets right at the moment, and have two clarinets that I'm interested in: a Buffet E-13 and a Selmer Paris Prologue. In your professional opinion which is the better clarinet according to tone quality and over all sound?? I'm trying t ofind the better in strument, but both offers say that their clarinet is the better clarinet. If you could help, please let me know.
Thanks,
Katie
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Author: Paul
Date: 2002-06-07 16:07
You have to physically pick up several of each brand and try them out yourself. There's no other way. So many factors in manufacturing and of course the feel of one brand could be better then the next on any given day. After trying out several of both brands I ended up with a Selmer. My teacher thought I should have bought a Buffet but when he tried out my new Selmer he told me a got a good horn. Good luck! Paul Croshaw
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Author: Mandy
Date: 2002-06-07 20:34
The E-13 is a great clarinet for not a lot of money although here in the UK the Prologue is approx, £150-£200 more than the Buffet.I used to have an E-13 but I must admit the extra £350 I spent on my new Yamaha CS-V was worth every penny.
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Author: David Dow Symphonia nb
Date: 2002-06-12 13:00
The Selmer Prologue is defintely superior in every way to the E11 and I would not hesitate reccommending this model. Many pros have tried the Selmer prologues and feel they are more dependable and also have integral tone holes which makes for a more enjoyable experience in playing. These clarinets are so good I also have told students about them and I recently purchased one....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-13 11:25
How does integral tone holes make a "more enjoyable experience in playing"? Is it the belief that it must be better because it cost more, because it was more difficult to make?
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-14 23:19
No the intonation on the prologue is more accurate as a result of less undercutting than on the E11s.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-15 02:49
David Dow wrote:
>
> No the intonation on the prologue is more accurate as a
> result of less undercutting than on the E11s.
Hmmm ... that's kind of a strange statement, since undercutting is done precisely to <b>improve</b> intonation, not for any other reason.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-15 15:46
David. Whether a tone hole is an insert or integral, surely does not affect whether a tone hole can be undercut. So I still seek an answer to my question?
BTW steer clear of the left hand D#/G# lever option. On a Prologue the design is a disgrace; the lever can easily slip above the key and jam the action on many of these clarinets.
There design is good on the "Signature" model.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 00:15
Dear Mr. Charette: If the insert has a greater flare at the bottom end towards the bore, so it acts as if it is undercut more and therfore sharper in pitch. // like this and if overdone as on the E11 as a result of plastic inserts they are voiala sharper!! Now you be the judge and go try an E11 and compare and look with the tuner and you will be convinced!
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 00:17
Addendum" Also the bore work of the instrument is used to compensate for pitch as well and the bore work of the more expensive Prologue is far more accurate as well. Note the placement and style of the register key on the E11 too and you will note sharper throat notes as well.....Respectfully submitted David Dow
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 00:59
David,
an insert per se does not determine undercut - whether a tone hole is made via a direct drilling or via an insert is irrelevant to the amount of undercutting. If the insert is "pre-undercut" then that's a manufacturing/production decision, not something predetermined by it having an insert or not.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 01:01
David Dow wrote:
>
> Addendum" Also the bore work of the instrument is used to
> compensate for pitch as well and the bore work of the more
> expensive Prologue is far more accurate as well.
What exactly do you mean here? Have you measured the bores for accuracy (a statistically significant number)?
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 01:03
The inserts are pre undercut (and overdon) in my opinion and if you own an E11 like I do then you would see this. Because they are manufacture at a specified size that is somewhat dissproportionate the intonation is directly sharper.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 01:07
Yes I measure these with a micrometer and (as I do all clarinets) and the evasement at the bore on the E11 is .78 mm greater than the R13 whick is significant enough to cause intonation to change....this in the top cone insert tone holes
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 01:12
I have measured about 60 E11s and quite a few Prologues (12 or 15) and come to the conclusion the tuning of the prologue to more accurate...however, its time for milk and cookies and maybe the late show. Also see the Rendall book about diasatrous effects of tone hole undercutting in The Clarinet. Faber and Faber London 1952 That being said, just go out and get a new barrel about 2.mm or so longer and it should have a lowevering effect that will make it quite nice, as I have done with a number of my students here. Try a chadash or something in that zone and your in business
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 01:14
The bore of the Prologue is reverse cone and the E11 is something hyrid like an R13 polycylindrical bore.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-16 03:02
David why do you keep blaming the fact of having an insert for what you perceive as inappropriate undercutting.
The two are completely separate issues.
An integral tone hole can have anything from no undercutting to excessive undercutting, and so can an insert.
You still have not begun to answer my question, "How does integral tone holes make a 'more enjoyable experience in playing'?"
Could you withdraw this statement or explain logically.
If you write something of little (or false) substance in this forum, the next thing ignorant people are repeating it sufficiently for it to become believed by the masses as a fact.
Then we have ridiculous situations such as in the flute world where otherwise sensible people swear that in-line G keys are necessary to establish corrrect hand position, affecting demand, hence production, and resulting in inferior mechanism.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 14:24
You can contact the manufacturer at Selmer on the Prologue for product info about the Prologue and the E11 has inserts for tone holes made of plastic that are standardized. The Prologue offers a tougher mechanism and these are only opinions...always try an instrument out first and if you like buy it. As far as I am concerned I have worked professionally for over 15 years and have played 100s of instruments whether or not that means anything or not who knows. As far as I am concerned the bore work at Buffet is good but note the platic coating on the exterior of the E11 and you have what I'd describe as a lower grade wood. Cotact Buffet at Boosey and Hawkes and they will give you precise info. As a teacher I note all of the E11s are sharper and require either longer barrels or a change in mouthpieces to lower. This I have not seen with students with the Prologue. Yes I have perfect pitch as well and can tell whether or not a note is in tune. Please also refer to Rockstro on the issues of in line holes and undercutting which is a standard treatise on flute manufacture. You basically get what you play for. However that being said the E11 is used in France as a beginner instrument and the B12 platic is the starter here in North America...this becuase a colleague of mine in Paris starts his students (as most Frecnh professors) on the E11 expecting the student then to go to the RC later or the R13! Accurate means an overall in tune instrument or instrument capable of being better in tune with itself. This is all redundant and I think alot of peole should go to the stores for themselves and lay the instruments. Instead what wre see today is a great amount of shopping via the internet and or people looking for advice when one should try for themself. In tune is only as important as you want it to be and as well as that whether or not this is a critera for purchase. Along this issue is the factor of money and good old common sense. If you end up spending money on a new model mouthpiee and barrel to go with you "out of Tune " instrument then you should rethink the whole value system of the purchase your about to make. But a shiny new instrument seeems to be a very seductive thing, and a poor decision is only paid for greif later when your angry about your purhase...that being said are you a pro or an amateur, what circustances dictate a decision. Is this instrument whether an E11 or Prolgue the one I feel plays best. These are intangibles that a performer or student should go with. Also the advice of a teacher or pro can help the decision along. As far as measurements I have seen wide varieties in R13s in bore size which in some cases affected pitch and others didn't. A musical instrument is not hard science but an art as well and we all blow and play differnetly. But no matter a bad instrument will never get better!
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 14:27
Dear Katie: Choose the instruent you like best.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 14:28
Dear Katie: Choose the instrument you like best.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 14:28
My spelling is terrible.. many apologies
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Author: Heinz Bloch
Date: 2002-06-16 14:53
mr. Dow has a right to assert his opinion and I prefer integral tone holes and I worked 40 years in music as a clarinetist. I also know undercutting if overdone is disastrous and I have instruments to prove it!
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Author: Heinz Bloch ret'd. musician
Date: 2002-06-16 15:36
Undercutting can be overdone on any instrument whether with integral tone holes or no. In europe much of the problem with the newer Yamaha reform boehms is he incorrect matching of bore to tone hole ratios. Close freinds of mine in Utrecht also find that the E11 Buffet is good for students, but, they tend to play sharp(above 443!) on these instruments in ensemble with standard equipement. I have noted this because the band I used to play in there tunes at 442. I believe pitch in North America is 440 standard across the board? Yes, we have resorted to pulling out-- and longer barrels, but, sometimes not so satisfactory. My brother Jurgen played flute in an orchestra for years but this was closed hole and I don't remember the in line g being a serious issue in spite of his tendency to play sharper at loud volume!! Our duets were always tricky! Selmer make very good contrabass clarinets too! I played the Eb and could never fill it with enough air..in Halifax Canada a colleague of mine who repairs has also said good things about the way the new Proloque plays and has repaired a number of them...he also played in the Candian Miliatary bands and would know a tough good quality instrument. I myself don't play too much anymore but good luck in your search!
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Author: Roland Berger
Date: 2002-06-16 15:59
I only play on wurlitzer clarinets and detest the boehm as a monstrosity...try playing the open G in tune and then the ajacent f# and already you got a problem. Maybe the manufacturers are the only ones winning and we are all suffering the price of mass production!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 21:51
Heinz Bloch wrote:
>
> mr. Dow has a right to assert his opinion
Of course he does. However, asserting things as "facts" will always garner a response from me as to how we can can assign any level of veracity to so-called "facts".
Saying that a bore is more "accurate" than another when what is really mean is that intonation is more accurate is very misleading at best. The same for saying (or at least implying) that inserts cause intonation problems.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 21:52
Roland Berger wrote:
>
> I only play on wurlitzer clarinets and detest the boehm
> as a monstrosity...try playing the open G in tune and then the
> ajacent f# and already you got a problem. Maybe the
> manufacturers are the only ones winning and we are all
> suffering the price of mass production!
When Wurlitzer can bring their prices and wait time down to something resembling reasonableness then perhaps they'll have a chance at competing with the rest of the market ...
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Author: Roland Berger
Date: 2002-06-16 22:23
Inserts on the Rossi clarinets are handled far better, and yeild secure intonation. Much of Mr. Dow's knowledge is very correct about wind manufacture, however: Mr. Rossi would be an excellent example of non integral toneholes being done properly. An example of an incorrect or wrong bore would be one that alters with aging and leads to intonation trouble which could happen with any instrument. Music is also not about marketing but an intense personal experience as well, and ,money is no object. When you consider the budget on miliatary spending for destructive reasons then music is a pretty safe way of knowing your committed to the betterment of the world we are in. To use Rockstro's words "Machining on any wind instrument is an unfortunate necessity". It is not the performers duty to make an instrument Mr. Charette,but the manufacturer, and ,some do it better than others depending on the criteria that is set. The case inpoint, Mr. Loouis Rossi does excellent work on his non integral tone holes!
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Author: Roland Berger
Date: 2002-06-16 22:38
The more a tone hole is undercut the shaper the pitch....the less the lower.....the larger the bore the less undercutting required...the smaller the bore more undercutting...too large a tone hole raises pitch too small lowers...the louder a clarinet plays has a lower effect on pitch...the softer we play raises pitch...this is inverse on many other instruments..the chalumeau if in tune yeild flat 12ths if venting in inadequate....tone holes act as vents...harmonic partials present in a given note are 3rd, 5th 7th and 11th respectively...different players can create different parials on the same equipment...the clarinent behaves like a stopped pipe....intonation on winds requires subtle manipulation of lips and air column...the clarinet progressively gets flatter in pitch the higher you play and sharper the lower(the flute is inverse).... the warming of the wind column raises pitch......the placement of the upper register vent affects intonation greatly and different placements have pros and cons...the Wurlitizer is a Cadillac and the others are Edsels....however for others the reverse is true as well...the R13 is a very fine clarinet but Buffet will also make a Custom model for you if you want a specific bore or key desgin...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-06-16 22:50
Roland Berger wrote:
> When you consider the budget on
> miliatary spending for destructive reasons then music is a
> pretty safe way of knowing your committed to the betterment of
> the world we are in.
This is getting a bit comical now, don't you think?
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 22:56
The Prologue I like better.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-16 22:58
I think what Mr. berger is trying to say that the price of the Wulitzer is less expensive than an atom bomb. I'm puttin this one to rest, I gotta practice....and then its time to go make some home brew.
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Author: Marius
Date: 2002-06-16 23:05
I think you guys are off topic and the clarinet is a E13 not E11 and I am not sure but this may have integral tone holes!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-17 12:40
And even after all that, Mr Dow has still not answered my question.
Or wsa "The Prologue I like better." the closest I am going to get to a specific reply?
BTW I consider that Selmer has some serious quality control problems with their Prologue, as with their saxophones (see http://forum.saxontheweb.net/ click on "Selmer", then on "Consistancy")
I've forgotten the details at present but they would be quickly refreshed next time I see one.
I have already mentioned the L.H. C#/G# lever option.
Another disappointment is tenon corks.
I have even seen brand new tenons with multiple splits, possibly form forcing a lathe tailstock centre into the tenon.
The top-of-the-range case is often very scruffy with its lining pulled all over the place, and with supporting structures that are loose from poor gluing behind the lining........
Buffet have their problems too.
Is it both of them that have flirted with the ridiculous undulating tenon cork grooves?
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-17 14:01
I still think we are beating a dead horse here. Individual models may be better than others and so a player must ultimately set aside time to go through a "test" and play process.....I agree that much of the workmanship now is indeed shoody...also remember that grenadilla farming is not what what it used to be as well....or more on that try looking up under grenadilla farming on the net....these are moderate priced inermediate instruments and no two instruments are alike.....yes Buffet has its problems too..I play orchestrally everyday for months on end and intimate with intonation faults on my own clarinets...its important though to pick an instrument with minimal faults not maximum....the undulating groove thing is strange and seems holdover from the past....some of the Prologue 1s are better than the never ones...yes I also own a Prologue One and an E11 as back up clarinets...both have faults and yet personally I like the feel of the zintegrated tone holes...the E13 I am not sure of and have never played on......much of the problem is the diversity of models...some companies make over 5 or 6 professional instruments so you get quality control issues....mu first R13 Bb from 1982 has awful wood and problems with cracks in the lower joint on the low E!.... a good source of knowledge on bore discussion is Rendall the Clarinet and reading for any serious student of the clarinet....for a thousand dollars you don't get what you did even 15 years ago...oh well its off to rehearsal to play Beethoven 6...
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Author: Dr. Jacob Mathias UNB
Date: 2002-06-18 01:23
All companies are having serious quality control problems....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-06-18 13:01
I haven't seen much mechanical quality control problem on Yamaha.
Peter Eaton & Howarth are not bad either.
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