 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ilkka
Date: 2002-05-31 08:59
Are the dimensions of reeds exactly same in different strengths?
In other words, does the stiffness come from material?
I've played Vandoren #2 in Sib for few months, should I take #3?
Is #3 thicker, or more spring-like than #2?
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-05-31 10:16
All reeds suck except the perfect one. Good luck with Vandoren. Half sizes definitely play different than whole sizes. Try a 2 1/2.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-05-31 14:55
Generally, the higher the number, the stronger the reed. The deciding factors should be the quality of sound and reponse that you desire in your playing, not the demensions of the reed. The increased "stiffness" comes from more material (cane) being left in the final cut and the quality (consistancy) of the cane itself. And this cane consistancy, which varies greatly from stalk to stalk, makes it practically impossible to predict exactly how stiff (or soft) the finished reed will be. So, you have to go through a whole box of ten and decide if the average of the reed strengths found is right for your mouthpiece. It all depends on the sound you get from your mouthpiece. If the sound is thin, very bright (shrill), lacks forte and cuts off with mild lip pressure, your reed is too soft--try one whole step strength higher. If your sound is breathy (hard to blow and sustain) requiring far too much embouchure "bite", your reed is too stiff--try one whole strength softer. When you begin producing a sound that is full, flexabile from loud to soft, responsive to varied articulative styles and fairly easy to sustain, you've picked the right strength. With experiance, as your embouchure strengthens, you may wish to "move up" one-half strength, but let your sound and your playing comfort be your guild. My personal set-up is a Chicago Kaspar #14 (fairly open tip) and V12's #3.5. On my other custom mpc, which has a "closer" tip opening, I use V12's, #4,0. For each mpc, I must condition and balance them for optimum playing performance--I rarely find one that plays "right out of the box." And, my own theory is, "play the reed, don't let the reed play you." That is to say, I have learned to be flexabile in being able to perform on reeds with relatively different playing characteristics, which is an advantage in dealing with the inconsistancies we all find in any give box of reeds. I start with reeds that are one-half strength too hard, and then "work them down" to playing condition by balancing and conditioning. And generally, I get four "concert grade" reeds and six "rehearsal" or practice grade reeds from every box of ten--that's right, 100% use of all ten reeds. The "better" ones last longer--the "OK" reeds wear out sooner, but I am able to adjust to and play most reeds that I work on. The "Great Reed Search" is one of the many joys of playing single reeds instruments and I wish you luck in your search. You may have to go through many boxes of reeds before you discover the strength best for your mouthpiece, so, start saving your pennies--better yet, dollars!!!! Hope my posting helps. Good Clarineting!!!!!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-05-31 16:46
Reed dimensions are the same, in all strengths, Except for the thickness. Generally, the higher the number, the thicker the reed toward the tip. This thickness relates to what we percieve as - 'stiffness' - which in turn determines how it responds to:
Individual
Mouthpiece
Ligature
Temperature
Relative Humidity
Atmospheric conditions
Global Positioning
Planetary alignment
Moon/Tide phase
Instrument
and one's hairstyle
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-05-31 18:05
It's always been my belief that (at least with Vandorens) all the reeds are produced to the same dimensions, including the thickness. When finished they are then tested for resistance/flexibility and graded accordingly.
This would seem to differ from ron b's understanding. Can anyone tell us, for sure, who is right?
jez
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-31 20:15
jez, you're right as far as I've measured - for all reed brands. There's no thickness differences between the strenghts, just natural stiffness differences.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-05-31 20:38
Old dawg, thick head :
Why do we Clip the end to make the reed 'stiffer', Scrape away material to make it 'softer'? If there were no differences in thicknesses these measures would be fruitless.
But, what do I know? I've never measured a reed (hangs head, lost in simulated thoughtfulness). Come to think of it, I stopped scraping and trimming after fifth grade... I'll be back later, after I find where I left the micrometer (not kidding . I think I know where it might be. I gotta check this out. You guys've piqued my curiosity.
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Author: Sarah
Date: 2002-05-31 20:49
I think that is is meant that if you measure one read at a specific spot and another at the same spot, they will be about the same thickness. One individual reed will vary in thickness. The tip is much thinner than the other end.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-31 22:58
Ron, all the reeds of a particular brand and line start out having the same profile, then a machine grabs the butt end of the reed and bends it, and that's how the strength is measured.
Clipping or scraping a reed effectively changes the profile - that's why it gets effectively stiffer (it doesn't really get stiffer - now there's more thickness at the tip) if you clip it or softer (again, it doesn't get softer, there's just less material) if you scrape it.
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-06-01 00:04
So are you guys saying the amount of material doesn't affect the softness or hardness of the reed? In other words if there is more material at the tip the reed will be harder-but not because there is more material. Am I reading this right? Please help a poor dumb cajun from Louisiana understand this a little better!
Peace!
Brian
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-01 02:21
I just measured two reeds, both Rico regulars - a 2 1/2 and a 3 1/2. The 3 1/2 measures 1000th thicker. That's not enough to prove anything one way or the other, I know. The 3 1/2 is used, the 2 1/2 is new. In the meantime, I'll take Mark C's word for it - I have no reason to doubt it. One thou is not enough to change anything anyway. For practical purposes they're the same thickness at the tip
I've always, when I found a need to, scraped at the 'heart' of the reed if it was too stiff - never the tip. Clipped, or otherwise shortened the tip, if it was too soft. Every clarinet hound I've known has done the same. And, it was always with a good amount of guesswork.
So, is the heart a different thickness or shape for different strengths? There has to be more or less material *somewhere* :|
Now, this is getting juicy... I'd be interested to know what kind of reed strength guage a factory uses to measure reeds. The guages that stores use measure them one at a time. I can't imagine a factory doing it that way.
Peace likewise, Brian. This poor dumb hick from Californy needs guidance too :|
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-06-01 02:40
Hey Ron!
Do you think it's the salt water that makes us dumb? ( The Pacific for you and the Gulf of Mexico for me.)
Just kidding!
Peace!
Brian
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-01 03:15
Of course it's not the saltwater!! I live in Tennessee where there's no saltwater around and I'm just as ignorant as all'y'all!
Then again, I'm also afraid that if I look too much into measurements and how things work it'll lose some of the magic. (Like the conical bore, which quickly became a "comical bore", remember, )
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-01 03:19
Hi, Brian
I dunno. Gotta be an explanation somewhere, I guess. Hmmm. salt. Water. Do you like salt water taffy? I'll use that as one excuse - taffy daffy :]
Long moonlit walks on short San Francisco piers do wonders for our deeper sensibilities too.
Then, of course, it could be all those melodious cow bell serenades along the Sierra foothills.
Justin Wilson could have a lotta fun with this one))
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-01 03:31
Just when we got to feelin' comfortable with it all... along comes David.
No saltwater in Tennessee??? This is gotta be the most rediculous thing I've heard in my life! I can't handle that. Maybe we can run a comical pipeline over your way and exchange information that way. Just kinda guess at it, no micro measurements or anything, just a little saltwater to keep your spirits up, keep the magic going.
A sort of mutual ignoration society :]
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-01 03:38
Do you have fireflies (or are they glow-worms?) in Tennessee, David? I was in Indiana last year when they were all over the place. Fascinating. Looked like they could use a little taste of saltwater. Nothing against them or anything - they do just fine as they are... that was an amazing sight to a westerner. They don't exist out here at all :|
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-06-01 03:44
Ron...
If moonlit walks help you out you definitely need to come down here. Here you get a bonus...
Late at night when the moon is full we go down to the Gulf and let the jellyfish sting us back to our senses!
Afterward we have our special seaweed tonic as a nightcap!
Peace!
brian
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-01 06:41
Sounds like they really know how to party in your neighborhood, Brian
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-06-01 14:48
From a T&AM(Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) standpoint two things control/affect the "stiffness" of all materials. These are the material's natural stiffness as a physical property and the second is the thickness of a member(board, reed,beam etc).(I believe that width is a factor too, but I'm too long out of school.)
Different woods have different stiffness values and so it is reasonable to expect that the raw reed product varies in stiffness depending on where it was grown,growing conditions etc etc. It would appear(based on MC's comments) that there is a fair amount of difference in stiffness among different "raw reed"...maybe more than in wood products. Given the variation in natural stiffness, then, finished reeds with identical dimensions can be graded(for stiffness). After you purchase the reed you can reduce its stiffness by changing its thickness by sanding,scraping etc. It's possible, I imagine, that some other treatments that don't change the thickness could increase the stiffness. Graphite and carbon have very high stiffness,that's why they are used in manmade reeds.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-06-01 20:02
Yes, we have fireflies down here in Tennessee. Saltwate would mae them go crazy, no doubt...
So what happens if you soak a reed in saltwater?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-06-02 01:49
I don't know about saltwater soaks, David. Might be interesting to try it though. So many other things influence reeds, maybe saltwater... dunno.
Earlier today, however, I checked in with my 'mentor', list of clarinet related questions in hand, among them mention of this thread. He confirmed outright (as I suspected he would), almost verbatum, Mark C's above post -
"Ron, all the reeds of a particular brand and line start out having the same profile, then a machine grabs the butt end of the reed and bends it, and that's how the strength is measured".
He thought my measurement of a thousandth difference was too much but agreed that usind an old one and a new one likely accounted for that. Essentially all reeds of any particular brand measure the same. He added that the 'strength' probably depends on soil conditions, sunlight intensity, water (salt? - hahaha, I don't know), which side of the hill it grows on, how near the root end of the stalk etc., etc. and on and on and yakkity-yak. Any and all factors could be involved but the fact remains... brands differ but among brands all profiles are the same. After a machine mills the reeds, another machine measures, grades and sorts the finished product.
I'd like to see that machine in action Must be a sight to behold. Maybe someone has been priveledged to visit a reed factory and could relate the experience.
Personally, thanks to Ilkka, I've learned a lot the past couple of days - and had some great fun in the process.
Thanks, Ilkka!!!
:)
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Author: Ilkka
Date: 2002-06-03 04:19
Monday, just came to my office and entered net, 23 replies to my question! I am surprised! Thank You All! I will study those very carefully. Seems that somebody else, as me, use brainwork with reeds.
Seems that I was right with thickness. That is why I am thinking of switching to stronger. The #2 feels like banana srtip although thick and unsanded. I quess #2½ or #3 might be more responsive and better vibrating, if too stiff, I sand it thinner. OK???
As thank you for my repliers, here some backround. I am 46 years living in Finland. I am supposed to be a engineer or something. I am a amateur actor and very keen on it. This summer we do Nummisuutarit (Moorlandshoemakers), A Finnish classic. Of course I am Antres the clarinetist. Last fall director said: Ilkka plays clarinet next summer. Allright. Bought an old Boosey-Hawkes and borrowed from library all books handling clarinet, and believe me, practised several hours per day all winter. Interesting equipment! Burned my nerves many times, most just before got sick with my mouthpiece and bought Vandoren B45, which is perfect I think.
Much learning still to go. I wish me luck and again Thanks to You all who read this. -Ilkka-
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-06-03 04:35
It seems everyone (except me) obsesses unduly about reeds - maybe I need to be obsessive? Eeeiiikkk.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-03 13:43
I note the interest in reed sizes and from one manufacturer to the next the streagnth issue is at variance. Vandorens seem to be alot harder generally than other makes, yet, vary greater than other makers within the box in terms of usability. some players should look into the matter of reed finishing and get the Opperman book which teaches the correct method of reed adjustment. I personallly feel that reeds are like tires and can wear out with alot of usage so get a few working and rotate them like your tires. At some points I have up to 8 that work beautifully and some are fairly old but haven't been overpayed so they are lasting longer. In concerts I use a B40 mouthpiece by Vandoren with 3 and a half V12 and also 3 and 3 and a half blue box traditional reeds.... be very careful with the break in period and you may find your happier with overall operformance. I have very little luck with Oliverie and Glotin cane yet they now may have newer lines of reeds that work better. Be very cautious in judging a reed at first. Play a legato scale first or hold the open g for a while. If this is next to impossible you may need to go down a half size. There are no fixed rules with reeds and you may some Vandoren reeds in a box of 3 feel like fives, but in terms of breaking in this may also change with usage and the reed will be more easy blowing as you work it in so to speak. There is alot to be said for a reed knife and cautious and judicious use of this tool can change a player's life drastically. I also find occsassionally a reed that will not work ever! But don't throw these out because these may need more aging. If a clarinetist doesn't take the time to work on reeds slowly and carefully, then reed problems increase. It really is a matter of methodical and slow work with great amounts of patience and no you don't have to obsess about it if you have 5 reeds that play well then you should be well off for quite awhile...the goal is simply not to get dependant on any particular reed!
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