 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tom Reeves
Date: 2002-05-29 18:25
Hi!
I play a Buffet R-13 Bb clarinet and currently have a R-13 A on hire. I really will need to buy my own 'A' before i go to uni/music college. Most the R-13 A clarinets i have played seem very stuffy, is there anyone recommend any decent A clarinets worth trying, or is it best to stay with a matching pair
Cheers
Tom
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Author: James
Date: 2002-05-29 19:03
As far as buffet clarinet's go. I think the barrel makes the biggest difference. For some reason the buffet A clarinet barrels aren't that good. Try purchasing a Chadash A clarinet barrel, they make a significant improvement in the the tone and feeling of the horn. It makes the registers more even and since every barrel is a little different find one that has less resistance. I'm not sure where you are purchasing from but I know stores like Muncy winds and international musical suppliers are owned by clarinetist. They tend to be more picky as to what horns they will by from the maker.
If all else fails and you still don't care for them. Try Leblanc's Concerto1189AS. They are amazing A clarinets!!! You don't get any of that grunting in the upper register (think respighi pines of rome 3rd mvt solo) They are also amazingly even in all registers and is generally intune all the way around. No flat 2nd octive E's and F's. The twelves are much better in tune as well.
good luck
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-05-29 20:08
Tom,
I have a pair of Buffet RC prestige, (European equivalent of the R13 Prestige) and the A is amazing, even better than my Bb. Maybe an R13 Prestige in A would be worth trying if you really want to stay with Buffet for matching?
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-05-29 22:41
Oh for goodness sake - don't buy ANYTHING but Buffet or you'll just never have a good clarinet. I challenge any of the Buffet "marfia" to a blindfold test. Take one each of the top 4 pro clarinets - get someone (good) to play a 2 minute piece, on each instrument and then identify the instrument without any visual reference.
I'd be very interested to see the results.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-05-30 01:16
So, you buy the R13 "A" and then you shell out for a Moennig/Chadash/Fobes/Pyne/etc barrel to help the left hand 12ths and maybe sort out the stuffiness. Then you might need to have the register vent doctored for a clearer clarion "A"...
I think Buffet got it right with the R13 Bb, but, in general, the R13 A is a bit of a dog (I've owned 3) compared to their other models.
But now (hi Diz!) I wave the red, white and blue flag: If you want to stick with Buffet I second Stephanie's suggestion of RC model "A" or the the Festival. Pick the instrument, have a good general set-up done and away you go.
Ken
PS. I've also owned 3 R13 A's!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-30 02:12
Easy Diz....bring them on.
Remember that professionals do have choices....most of us play Buffet because we feel that they are superior clarinets, not because we've been brainwashed.
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-30 02:46
Tom,
How much experience do you have playing the A clarinet? Many players express the same opinion about their A being "stuffy". When I ask a player how much time they spend practicing on the A...they quite often say, "only as much time as I have to". Expect the A to feel and play differently, especially if you spend less time on this clarinet. It will rarely feel exactly the same as your Bb. Even the best A clarinets will feel slightly different (that is not to say worse) than the Bb on your best day. I'm not even sure you want it to feel or sound exactly the same as your Bb.
If you want to play the A clarinet well, practice most of the time on the A clarinet. Practice everything on your A clarinet. When you move to Bb it will feel like a sports car....:-).
I own 5 Buffet A clarinets. All play differently....all play well. I have a 64,000 serial number R-13 that doesn't feel all that good but sounds really great; I have a 127,000 serial number R-13 that is ultra refined and "sweet" (I love this clarinet); I have a 386,000 serial number A that is a great orchestral clarinet, power and a sound that cuts like a hot knife through butter; I own two Festivals that I play solo recitals and chamber music with and quite often use them in the opera...their sound "gets out" of the pit well (into a 3600 seat hall). Both Festivals are my current favorites. The one thing these clarinets have in common is good pitch. In a search for a new clarinet I know that I will always be able to find an instrument that sounds good...finding a clarinet that makes my life easy when playing with others is a far more difficult and critical task. My number one criteria when selecting new clarinets is intonation!!! And as Hat says, "Intonation, intonation, intonation." When I sit down to perform with other professionals, I want a clarinet in my hands that will make the intonation issue easy.
Good luck in finding a new clarinet.
F. Aten
Before you buy your A....play a lot of clarinets. (and practice your A ALL of the time before you start the selection process)
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-30 03:00
As to "matched pair"....
I do find that the general intonation tendencies on the Festivals differ slightly from the R-13's. The left hand intonation is slightly lower than on the R-13 and the right hand tends to be slightly higher. This can be a challenge when switching from one model to another...even a bigger problem when switching from one make to another. I make it easy on myself by playing clarinets in "pairs". Festivals with Festivals...R-13 A's with R-13 Bb's.
You could mix and I do sometimes....but again, try to make it easier to get the job done at the highest performance level. The fewer variables the easier and better.
F. Aten
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Author: james
Date: 2002-05-30 04:06
Todd-
I don't use a Chadash barrel with my "A" Concerto. Those barrels are specially made for buffet buy guy Chadash. The bore measurements are different on Leblanc and buffet clarinets.
Dizz-
You seem to be terribly annoyed with the whole everyone wanting a buffet. I must tell you though that I haven't been brain washed. In fact I’m switching back to buffet from my opus which I purchased two years ago when I was a freshman in High School. I have realized as I have grown as a clarinetist and that Leblanc isn't for me and I see why it isn't for most other people. It's not being brain washed because I swore by Leblanc for a few years. Heck one of my teachers play on Leblanc and the other endorses them! I am being completely open minded in my decision to play on buffet.
Sure you can get someone to play each clarinet for you. Listening to see if there is much difference in the sound. The fact of the matter is that there isn't. It's a matter of comfort and what fits you. If you listen to recording of Larry Combs playing with the CSO before he switched brands to after he did, I honestly dare you to tell the difference. I bet you I will sound the same on either brand but I prefer the feeling of buffet. I have recorded myself playing the opus and playing the R13 prestige. The sound that I produce is still the "James" sound. But I love the feeling I get from the prestige more than the opus. I am actually in fact a little nervous to sell my Bb Opus for fear I may want it back one day, but every brand is good, and I have determined that if I want to be a successful clarinetist, I will get there no matter what brand of clarinet I play.
Maybe im missing something else too in this response. Also sorry for any spelling mistakes in advance
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Author: david dow
Date: 2002-05-30 10:31
No matter what if you are unhappy with the R13 A then I would definitely move to something different. I have found the newer A clarinets in the R13 line to have some very poor qualities and this is the tonal color of the chalumeau d and c and the color changes around the throat e natural f#. Then to add to this is the very flat top high F on the 3rd ledger fine above staff, which is pretty immovable depending on the horn. Many people have spent so long idolizing the Buffet that they have forgot that it too has its quirks so some players are reverting to the Vintage models, which emulate more of the original 70s bores and and design that was more consistent tonally. I myself own a very old A r13 and like it far better becuase its tuning is a little more consistent than the newer models. If you play chronically sharp then maybe you might make sense of the tuning tendencies, but for the average north american player set up you may find yourself searching for an A to match your Bb from another maker....
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Author: gemmaelizabeth
Date: 2002-05-30 11:22
My R13 'A' is lovely, and have no idea what all this talk of 'stuffiness' is!! It's going to be a bit diffrent if you don't play it very often and break it in! I didn't play mine very much till I came to music school, then my teacher made me play all my studys on the A for ages and its lovely now! Maybe you just need time to play it in, i know the tendency is to stick to the Bb because its lighter and easier to play, but A's sound sooooo nice when played in and played properly!
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-05-30 11:52
Too much money and not enough sense! 5 Buffet A clarinets! It makes you wonder if the instrument really makes that much difference!
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Author: Mike Ringle
Date: 2002-05-30 17:09
Ahh, I think the fact of the matter has been revealed by a couple people. If you don't practice your A clarinet very much then it's going to feel different! Now, I'm just using this as an example, but here goes. I'm a sax player who plays in a jazz band at college. So, I need to play sax, clarinet, and flute. Now this doesn't really apply to cross instruments, but when I have to double on another sax I need to know its intonation tendecies and how to get the right sound. Now do you think if I just sat and played my alto all day and then went and gigged on tenor that I would have an easy time? Of course not. Now I don't mean to sound harsh, but being a clarinet player or sax player is different than saying "I play Bb clarinet in a concert band" If you're serious about your profession there is a chance that you'll need to play bass clarinet, alto clarinet, or A clarinet on a gig. So, work at it, play your etudes on A clarinet. I bet you'll feel the same way as gemmaelizabeth once you're done! No difference.
Well, that's my two cents, happy clarineting!
Mike
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Author: Simon
Date: 2002-05-30 18:44
I would like to say what I think about getting an "A" clarinet. As some have said, get a couple different kinds and try them out. Pick the one that works for you. I recently got an R-13 A and it is wonderful, has GREAT intonation; and it is one of the "newer" [Serial number in the 497XXX's] ones. I to find that it is easy to switch from my Bb to my A. You may also want to consider trying a Yamaha A clarinet [I tried a CX A cl. and actually really liked it; the feel was similar to my R-13 Bb].
Hope this helps!
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Author: Tom Reeves
Date: 2002-05-30 20:17
Hey guys,
I went and tried several 'A' clarinets today at my local store.
I tried a Howarth S2 and S3, Leblanc Opus and Concerto and both the standard R13 and the R13 prestige.
The standard R13 was amazing!!! I have bought that and now have a great matching set! Thanks for ure advice.
Tom
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Author: William
Date: 2002-05-30 20:45
Just spent the morning racing my two A clarinets (R-13 and Concerto) "around the block" testing sound, intonation and expressive flexability--and my Concerto won again. The deciding factor was the Concerto's superior intonation and even scale, although the Buffet has an edge in the sound caption. So, bottom line, I am now using my Concerto A (63XXX) with my great Buffet R-13 Bb (73XXX) Works for me!!! Good Clarineting!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-31 02:41
Tom,
It was good that you had a good selection to choose from.
Good luck with your new instrument. Break it in per the Buffet instructions. I'm sure it will serve you well for years.
F. Aten
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-31 02:46
Mark,
I play them all....a(A) clarinet for all seasons.
F. Aten
P.S. the instrument makes a huge difference.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-05-31 12:55
The high F on the r13 a is still low and still a fault and if you try leblanc and selmer they are better in tune on such an important note!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-05-31 20:12
Are you kidding? Why is this note any more important than any other?
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-03 11:04
Becuase it is a prominent solo note and also means the instrument is out of tune on nearby F# and this is less seen on older better made R13s from the 70s. Why would they change their A clarinet design?
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-03 22:50
David,
I own several newer Buffet A clarinets....one R-13 and two Festivals. I also own several older Buffet A clarinets and the newer clarinets are "better" overall than the older clarinets. (one produced in the 70's)
Have you played a 70's vintage Buffet A clarinet? How many? I was at North Texas University in the late 60's and early 70's and played dozens of A clarinets during these years. Most of the clarinets that I play today are better than those I played in the 70's.
In my opinion, Buffet clarinets are, in general, far better today than those produced in the 70's.
F. Aten
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-03 22:52
You're still kidding about that high F...right? What makes it more "prominent" than any other note on the clarinet?
F. Aten
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-04 11:51
In 1979 I tried 200 Buffet R 13s and kept a list of the playing charachteristics and came to the conclusion that the older moldels had less undercustting...bore evasements in the 60s we're changed and this led to serious problems on the A clarinets but less on the Bb models...only if your going to pay as much now for a clarinet )(then you did then) would you consider some of these problems a factor with the A clarinet. Also when you consider the amount of problems with color changge in the D to C area of the chalumeau this adds to alot of fiddling with things that never existed on "some " R-13s. Maybe some people play these notes up to pitch by biting but this note ...the High F is still hard to tune and less of a factor on Selmer models and Leblanc Opus clarinets...however it depends on what problems you would want to exchange for a design difference! Currently I own two Recital Selmers 2 Buffet R-13s and of them the A clarinet is from 1972 and is in perfect tune and used by me orchestrally. This clarinet was sold to me by former player in the Orchestre National and was privately sold. Again he agreed that may never models are quirkier and he choose his clarinet out a batch of 100s when Buffet tolerated that sort of thing. Mind you I also have many positive things to say about the R13 and that is its frankness of speech and its wonderful eveness acroos the break zone. In this area I found many of the 70s and 60s R 13s less appealling, in fact the lower clarion on the older models is quite unfavorable in many regards in terms of respone. I am just tring to promote a freindly discussion having taught now for many years... I also know there is no such thing as a perfect design...So Happy Clarineting!!
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-04 12:24
To further my feelings on the subject I am going to quote an article in the Clarinet Magaizne of March 2000 page 16 by Lee Gibson and JHL Playfair- Column 33rd paragraph "
p.39" I must confess I don't think they ever got the small bore R-13 A quite right. Whether it's the larger bore in the bottom joint that you mention I don't klnow, but the C/G seems to me too bright and the D/A too stuffy." end quote and next at the top of column 3 "Your expanation of the famous flat F on the R13 may be correct, but it is nevertheless a real fault and much deplored oever here. On e doesn;t find that on the older 14.85 mm instrument, nor on my one piece or on the Full Boehms" end quote. However these articles I beleive are to be taken with a grain of salt as individulal clarinets vary as well...also I beleive Rossario Mazzeo has much to say about intonation and such matters of individual makes in his books and numerous articles.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-04 12:34
Dear F. Aten: In aswer to your inquiriy above....................................... Prominant note means when I have a duet with a sharp piccollo in Richard Strauss and the piccollo is high and I am low, and for example in parts of Shostakovich symphonies we see these scorings abound and one then resorts to venting with Right hand side key b/f# to voice the pitch up which professionally makes an already difficult pattern or figure ene more difficult. It also depends your opinion of these matters on what professional circumstances you find yourself working under. The orchestra I play in also tunes at 440 vibrations per sec and yet on many A's that I have tested in orchestra recently in the R13 line I have found few that tune well here. I do about 30 concerts a year with this group and also work in freelance recording and in opera as well as play clarinet in bands of various nature. I was also wondering what you do F. Aten and also if your a professional performer? Sincerely David
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-06-04 15:32
I purchased my second, new R-13 "A" in 1990, and I had a stuffy, over-resistance-blowing problem with it. My tech at the time checked everything very meticulously. There were no leaks, and everything was "tweeked". Then one of my performing peers suggested that the register tube may be too long. My tech shortened the register tube, and the clarinet opened up gloriously! It changed immediately from a difficult-to-play intrument, into a beautiful-toned, free-blowing clarinet. The store was family owned, and the tech was part of the family and a 60-year flute-clarinet repair technician. It was the first time that he had seen a factory-new clarinet with that problem. I do advise that if this is done to your instrument, though, that Buffet or a very experienced, veteran tech do the work.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-06-04 15:34
An addendum: I tried 3 or 4 Buffet "A" clarinets at that same time, and they all had the same problem...
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-05 02:07
I had the same thing done to my older r13 and now it plays well too. I am not trying to say the R13 is a poor clarinet in fact quite the oppossite one wouldn't scrutinize it if one disliked it. In fact the R13 A overall is a fine instrument yet the vintage models are more to my own personal liking. A prominent solo withh alot of high fs and as is Stravinsky Histoire du Soldat so this is an example where a sloist has to watch and be guarded about sounding Flat!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-05 04:45
David,
I studied with Lee Gibson from 1970 through 1974. I know what he feels should have been done with the R13 well. Most of his suggested "improvemnts" showed up in the Festivals years later.
F. Aten
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-05 05:32
David,
I play clarinet for a living.
I am a member of the Dallas Opera orchestra (over 20 years now). <www.dallasopera.org>
I also play with the Dallas Symphony about 8 weeks each year as an extra. <www.dallassymphony.com> I play several weeks each year with the Ft. Worth Symphony. <www.fwsymphony.org> I play the Eb clarinet with the Dallas Wind Symphony <www.dws.org>.
And...do lots of freelance work in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I worked full time just over 39 weeks last year playing clarinet....part time another 4 weeks. I played in the Dallas Chamber Orchestra, Wichita Falls Symphony Orchestra, the Texas Chamber Orchestra, the Richardson Symphony and a concert with the Ft. Worth Ballet this past year. I performed 3 formal recitals this past year at local universities. I was adjunct instructor of clarinet (one year position) at Texas A&M University in Commerce, Tx this past year. I have taught at Brookhaven College, Richland College, Southern Methodist University and St. Mary's University.
I have performed as a guest artist at the Purgatory Music Festival <www.musicinthemountains.com> for a 9 year run in past years...the Arundel Music Festival <www.arundelfestival.co.uk> a couple of times....I could keep going but I think you can tell that I've been in the trenches for years.
(work enough for me.....makes me tired just thinking about it)
F. Aten
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-06-05 13:10
Dear F. Aten: I have been Principal Clarinet with Symphony NB here in Canada and I have been playing in other types of orchestras as well for over 15 years. My main teacher was Harold Wright and some study with Gerde Starke a former clarinetist with the Bavarian Radio Symphony, as well as in France under Guy Dangain and Robert Fontaine. I also have made numerous recordings for radio television and contemporary Canadian premieres of clarinet music. Our Symphony season begins in September and ends in May as well as that I do private teaching and also perform in various summer festivals in Canada. I feel much the same way as you about the trenches and the lot of the orchestra player and freelance artist is quite nasty at times. The main reason I ask about you line of work is I realize the experience of players is quite different from a teacher and so we share a common concern over things like tuning naturally. I also have been a fan of the Dallas Symphony and have some Mata recordings that are very good. As of late I notice the orchestras everywhere are cutting back and this has hit this part of Canada as well. We also have quite a changeover in Canada with Dutiot leaving the Montreal Symphony, the situation in Toronto is unsettled and just our little regional orchestra has lost our conductor who I felt was one of the best. All the best in clarinetting Yours truly David
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-05 16:47
David,
I had the pleasure of knowing Bud Wright quite well. While I was unable to study full time with Wright I was able to participate in several master classes over the years with Wright teaching. When were you in Boston? I have a daughter attending Boston College currently. A great city.
I have been keeping up with the orchestra situation in Cananda. Doesn't look like a pretty situation. Hopefully things will improve.
Regards,
Forest Aten
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Author: dAVID dOW
Date: 2002-06-06 13:31
Forest: Was with him in 87 to 89. I still have a Chedelville he reccommended for me and a number of Oppermans and Kanter A facings. At the time I would say he was the best teacher for the moment in my life and I actually swithched over to singe lip under him. What is amazing is how much the wind section has changed in the Boston symphony since he passed away with Sherman Walt gone and Gomberg gone. Apparently the ending of the tenure with Ozawa was pretty bitter and similar to this in Montreal with all the controvery over Dutiot and how tough he was. Our group is still waiting for an adequate replacement and next year its all guest conductors. Best wishes David Dow
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-06-08 00:54
I am sympathetic about your conductor situation. I have been following developments these past 6 months. While I think that the destructive nature of your former leader was bad for your ensemble, it is going to be difficult to find a replacement. (I would have been the first on the list to ditch the guy)
We went 5 years with "guest conductors" with the Dallas Opera before they finally decided on a music director/conductor. During that time, I thought (and still do) that this was a planned business move by the company to save money. Artistic integrity is often less important to board members than saving a dime.
Forest
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