 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2002-05-17 05:26
Is it normal to conduct a measure with 3 beats backwards? In other words, going to the left on beat two, rather than to the right?
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-05-17 12:40
No, it isn't correct. Tell your conductor to do it properly. It is possible he was never properly instructed. Tell him that conducting is a type of sign language, and shouldn't be done sloppily. There are books available.
Mitch
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Author: gosh
Date: 2002-05-17 14:30
Dear lord...Frankly, conducting isn't as proper as all of that. There are common ways of doing it, but it needn't always be done as an robot would. As long as the performer knows what the conductor wants, then things are going fine. There isn't one correct way to conduct. Solti, Karajan, Barenboim, and Furtwangler would all be horribly incorrect, and yet...somehow succesful.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-17 15:41
But perhaps the mentioned greats are more performing than conducting. They do their great work at rehearsals, getting the interpretation they want, but at performance they are really creatively dancing to the music most of the time, 'conducting' VERY capable players who are very used to blending in every way with eachother.
Let us consider more typical situations for the average musician.
If I am playing in a show and need clear direction, with little rehearsal, and maybe the odd singer missing a beat or three, or unexpectedly altering speeds, and see inverse conducting out of the corner of my eye, my immediate reaction is that I am 'out' by a beat or more. It is highly distracting.
I already need almost all the concentration I have available, and the conductor is detracting from the music by using up my much needed concentration in having to translate his conducting.
In many situations the communication from a conductor to the musicians, watching with peripheral vision, should be direct and automatic - sub-conscious, without having to be translated.
After we have learnt the standard method of reading forwards....
.sdrawkcab daer ot tlucifid si tI
If the conductor forces us to do this we cannot so readily focus on the many other aspects of the music; he cannot get our best from us.
It is thoughtless and inconsiderate to the players - ignorant.
Likewise any conducting ('hot coal' conducting, or the syncopated sort where the beat is when the battern is halfway on its journey up) that does not give clear ANTICIPATION where the intended beat should be.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-17 15:42
i.e. IMHO after playing for over 60 conductors, few of whom were clear to follow.
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Author: gosh
Date: 2002-05-17 16:09
The point was missed: Mitch said "No, it isn't correct." My point is that it's really far from the truth.
Again: As long as the performer knows what the conductor wants, things are going fine.
It is the conductor's job to constantly keep an eye on whether or not s/he is being understood. It's a constant prioritization between doing the sound-making musicians' work for them (rhythm, entrances [cues], etc.) and providing a musical impetus for the piece.
While there is certainly some dancing going on in front of some orchestras, some of the most creative looking are actually conducting. If they were just dancing to the music that the orchestra produces, then the orchestra wouldn't sound so different under different conductors playing the same piece.
In the case of the famous guys conducting with little rehearsal (as is, sadly, the norm these days), they must convey as much as possible in as little time as possible. The learning process for that piece is still taking place as the players perform on stage. That's another reason that performances evolve over time in a 4 concert series (say, Thurs. to Sun. performances). The conductor is conveying something new at all times.
In cases where something is going horribly wrong in a performance, the conductor, by any means necessary, is bring things back in line. Rarely is this kind of situation saved by merely beating time. (However, as pointed out, that can sometimes immediately make clear some things for those who are confused.)
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2002-05-17 17:36
If all the famous conductors are incorrectly conducting, then what is the orchestra doing? If any conductor does not know what he/she is doing then chances are 100% that the ensemble has no clue what is going on! Say something to your conductor. The worst that can happen is that you get and explanation about what is happening in that section.
IMHO, conducting is more mechanical than y'all think. There is a set way of doing it. If you don't do it one way, then how can people understand you? The only thing that is different is how conductor's express themselves in the music. The conductor is there to lead the ensemble. If they are doing a poor job of leading the group, then they should not be leading the group at all. I've always been told that if I don't know what I'm doing up there(on the podium), then I am dead because the ensemble will take advantage of me.
That's my two cents worth.
Kim L.
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-05-17 19:30
I've had conductors that are so precise, you can see at a glance whether they are at one, two, three, or four with the right hand and giving section cues/dynamics instructions with the other. Not sure?... a .25 second glance to see where the hand is is all it takes to get back on track.
I've also had a conductor who merely wafted her hands in the air as if interpreting modern dance with no clear indication as to when she wanted us to begin playing, when to release the bird's eye, or how fast to play the change to a section in 12/8. Sheer frustration for 1.5 hours.
The second conductor wasn't back for a second rehearsal.
In jazz, no conductor is needed bcause you listen to the drummer. In orchestral settings the conductor IS the drumbeat. Lousy conductor, lousy time, lousy music.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-17 19:48
Mitch A wrote:
> In jazz, no conductor is needed bcause you listen to the
> drummer.
Who is listening to the bassist ...
Mark C, former semi-professional bassist (half my income was from playing bass, thus the "semi"), who proved it on more than one occasion by screwing up and listening to the drummer screw up even worse ...
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-05-17 21:03
Gordon, a side issue:
".sdrawkcab daer ot tlucifid si tI"
It's only difficult if you never set type and read things upside down AND backwards. Heh Heh!
Bob A
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Author: gosh
Date: 2002-05-17 22:04
Alright, I'm going to mention Seiji for this one. He's one that can dance and look extraordinarily unusual on the podium. Strangely enough, however, the BSO can easily decipher what he's doing. That's a product of a great deal of time spent with Seiji (over 25 years) and the overwhelming knowledge of the score that Seiji has. Seiji has made decisions about damn near everything, which he is able to project to the orchestra.
Now, Seiji can also beat time with the best of them, if he has to. He rarely does, even with groups that are not as comfortable with him. There is a great difference between an excellent conductor and an excellent technician. To drag the BSO into it again, Koussevitsky, by all accounts, was fairly incompetent with the stick. Now, there are a few players still alive who'd consider it fighting words to claim that makes him a bad conductor.
Kim, there really is no set way to conduct. The only given is that, in order to be succesful, you must know the score, and be able to project that to an ensemble. With a group that is well trained by a conductor, you needn't spend so much time making sure they get from beat 2 to beat 3 with each other. This is why you train them to move together. In Le Sacre, it might be best (until the world can all whistle it from memory at least) to plow through meter changes simply, but clearly. In Beethoven 4, however, you can get things moving in the right direction and spend your time shaping phrases. If the orchestra is focusing on being with the conductor, the conductor needs to train them to focus on being with each other.
I say all this to point out the fact that musicians are just becoming slaves to the conductors these days. Doing what the conductor wants is great and to be commended, but don't let this become a situation where one doesn't play what the conductor doesn't show. If he doesn't give you the third beat, you should know where it goes and put it there (with the rest of the orchestra)regardless. If we miss an entrance due to the fact that the conductor didn't crutch us with a cue, that's OUR fault, not the conductor's. If a 3/4 beat pattern is backwards from your jr. high band director's, do you still not see the pulse? You wouldn't play the bar backwards, which is the real result of the question of reading type backwards. Nope...The pulse moves on.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-05-18 04:12
I actually watched (from the audience) a (choral) director conduct left handed recently, I never saw it done before. Actually he mostly beat 2 handed, but when he cued, he did so with the right. The choir didn't seem bothered, it was a decent performance, I'm not sure I'd want to sing for him.
My current community band director drives me nuts. He seems to use the same motions for cut offs, cues and to scratch himself! Additionally, he rarely counts a piece twice the same way. Cut time can be transformed into a wild fast 4 at his whim.
My favorite director (choral) uses relatively little motion in his arms, but everything he wants is written on his face. Yes, I've been singing for him for 22 years, but those new to him seem to do well also.
Regardless of style and form, the best directors are those who communicate clearly with little confusion or ambiguity.
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2002-05-18 04:56
Thanks for all your responses. I wasn't expecting so much feedback. The conductor in question(who unfortunately we had to let go), actually fluctuates between conducting 3 to the right for one measure and then to the left the next measure and back to the right, etc., etc. That was sadly enough not one of the worse things about her conducting. She is a very talented violin player who did not quite comprehend how to work with a non-professional group.
Ms. or Sir Gosh - How do you tell where beat 3 is when the piece you are performing is being played VERY rubato, you haven't rehearsed it enough, and the conductor is conducting 3 backwards, conducting 3 in 4, 3 in 2, or 4 in 3 or just throwing in lots of extra measures?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-18 09:33
In many situations (professional ones aside) most players just follow other players . The conductor is not really in charge at all, but just following. You can tell this because when the conductor stops in the middle of a piece at rehearsal the players just play on, sometimes for quite a long time.
If the conductor unexpectedly put pauses, or 'ppp' in unusual places he would most likely be ignored, and have to stop the players to use SPOKEN language to convey his wishes. This illustrates that he is not successfully using the language of conducting to communicate. He is NOT being followed. He is probably not worth following because he is not providing adequate leadership, because he is actually following.
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-05-18 15:00
Gordon, true to a point. But... when the conductor cuts off to go back to a section, EVERONE knows who's watching and who isn't.
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Author: Dave Dow Symphony nb
Date: 2002-05-18 16:47
It is really what your used to following..for expample some conductors can in fast music do each bar in 1 so really if the conductor gets good results this way it should not be an issue...I have worked under hundreds of conductors and must say that individuals differ and if the result is good then its correct. professional conductors are allowed alot of leeway in terms of individuality but they assume responsiblility not to change a pattern once they do it one way then its got to be predicatable....
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Author: gosh
Date: 2002-05-18 17:19
Sneakers-
If the conductor is adding or subtracting pulses to the piece or to the measure, then he or she doesn't properly know the score. I think that you're confusing a lack of knowledge of the piece with technical matters. When working in a recitative, for example, the slightest movement with intent can cause an orchestra to chunk out the V-I cadence that always seems to show up. In that case, if tons of measures are going by without need for the orchestra, perhaps all the orchestra needs are 5 quick (totally out of time) dead downbeats to know that 5 measures have gone by. (For those of you who have played in opera orchestras: familiar and very useful, huh? For those of you who have conducted opera orchestras: Familiar and much less energy-consuming, huh? ) In that case, you could also pulse your way through every pulse in every <orchestrally silent> bar. If every bar is empty, it could be a huge waste of energy though.
Things vary from to score to score. Not everything will be the same each time. The key is knowledge and movement with intent.
Conductors should know exactly what the score needs and what it demands of the orchestra and then to demand that from the orchestra. The orchestra, if quite young, may need to be trained a bit, but they can certainly learn (even/especially at a young age) to not need every beat in a very specific place or risk falling apart. You must train yourself to know where the beat belongs without needing a specific pattern from the conductor. Learn early. You should already know the piece through 1) score study, 2) recording study, or 3) rehearsal study so that you don't step in many holes where you shouldn't be.
This is how such groups as Orpheus work. Many of those guys play in other orchestras with conductors, but they play the same way everywhere. You don't need a conductor to tell you beats in the Brahms Quintet, so you shouldn't need one to tell you the beats in the last movement of his first Symphony.
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Author: Jas
Date: 2002-05-18 17:46
If he wants to flay his arms about and yes, indeed, dance around, I see that as his interpretation of the written piece, and what he sees in it and feels from it. Can't think of a better way to communicate to your orchestra/band. I watch my conductors' hands, bodies and faces. Afterall, your conductor has every right to interprete the score. It's my belief, that a conductor who leads the orchestra so, is more of a conductor than those with stiff "sailboat" stickwavin'. I darned well appreciate it!!!
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2002-05-19 21:32
Conductors are like the weather and sometimes one has to accept the weather but when its good its great...Ozawa is a very different sort of conductor for sure and much of the time in Boston at concerts I began to perceive an osmosis type of thing where the players knew exactly what was going on miles ahead of the bar line...Buddy Wright told me that the orchestra ensemble sometimes was difficult due to this free syle and some players liked this and others did't. Boston at the moment is an interesting case when you consider the controversy left in the wake of the Ozawa departure...but to defend Ozawa he always got a great tone out the Boston Symphony (but this orchestra has always had a great tone!) Conductors who are too precise can also be a hindrance to music making as well...I have worked in an orchestra for over 10 years now and really can't say anything concrete because the Conductor is a vital link in the artist success of the ensemble, but conducting technique from one to another is wildly variable! The next season we will have a guest conductor in our group for every subscription series and these are really auditions...so who knows what this can bring and sometimes in music a surprise is nice too...I think a good legato is hard to conduct and this is where music making begins and techinical talk ends...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-20 11:41
I suppose it all depends on the piece and the environment.
Conducting 'Chess', or 'West Side Story" for a relatively amateur pit orchestra, following lead singers that the players cannot actually hear half the time, is very different from conducting a highly romantic orchestral piece in a professional symphony orchestra concert.
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Author: Lee
Date: 2002-05-21 22:04
Directors in pits sometimes reverse the beats so that the arm moving across the white of the shirt can be better seen by the musicians on beats 1 & 3 in 4/4 for example. Conductors change the beating to best communicate what he wants best. That is part of the learning experience in getting a new director. The mechanical patterns are only a starting point for directing music.
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