 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryan
Date: 2002-05-03 17:19
I am writting this becuase I wanted to get people's feed back. I have a friend of mine who is terrifyed to "be himself" around his fellow musicians because he is scared that his reputation as a clarinetist will be destroys. He claims that orchestra industry is much more close minded and homophobic than even the sports leages like the NBA and NFL. Do you think this true?
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-05-03 17:29
Since I'm not gay and haven't experienced the world from that perspective, it's hard for me to really say either way.
I have had a fair amount of gay/lesbian musician friends, and have always noticed that they are a bit guarded about it (more or less depending on their surroundings/attitudes of those around them). Also, I haven't known anyone that was totally out of the closet and completely open about it in all circumstances, so that would seem to support your statement. I'm sure that it's no fun having to be in that position.
Kim
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-03 17:34
It's been no problem for me in Auckland amateur pit playing, but then often around 1/4 of the cast are 'out' gay too.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-05-03 17:39
I have a good friend who is a gay female, she is an excellent jazz/rock saxophonist/reeds player and has been (since I've known her, anyway) fairly open about her status. She seems to have done pretty well in the music business, but only she could say for sure whether her career has been hampered by the fact (or perception) that she is gay.
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Author: BeckyC
Date: 2002-05-03 18:11
Ryan,
Aren't you "'okay'" (from the MARK C post).......who agreed that you didn't like mark.
just curious.
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Author: Phil
Date: 2002-05-03 20:49
I know a few professional musicians in major orchestras throught the country that are gay. They have had their positions in the orchestra for only a few years, somewhere around 10 years or so.
They are out to the world but it's not really a matter of importance to anyone around them. It's just an accepted fact of who they are. Ther are members of the orchestra who probablly are extremely offended and disgusted by her as a person. However all that seems to melt away when she begins to play.
Noone really makes a big deal of it. they are great musicians and perform beatufully, so there's really nothing to complain about.
They both make no big deal out of their sexuality, it's just another small part of who they are.
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Author: monica
Date: 2002-05-03 22:38
you know what i don't really like.is that lesbians are more excepted than gays because of two things. one, all of those pervert guys out there who like that as long as it works for them and two, because most people still believe that men shouldn't be that way and they shouldn't be aloud to express who they are.i don't like how people are are cruel to gays/lesbians because of what the bible says. i'm not God so what right do i have to judgethem for what they do.they're just like every one else. it's not like they're aliens or they should be feared.did you ever notice that if a man is on t.v. reports with his husband that the reporters will on say "companion" and not husband.this one reporter did that once and the guy said "you mean my husband" and the reporter was all weird and and didn't say anything. i know none of you guys said anything agaisn't them i'm just stating my opinion.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-03 23:00
Considering the percentages of artists who have "alternate" lifestyles (gay, lesbian, bi, martian, purple, whatever) I would imagine less prejudice and problems with the art community than with the "straight" community. I do know that at Interlochen Arts Academy there is a Gay/Lesbian club which I thought was a great idea.
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Author: spf
Date: 2002-05-04 04:23
First; in the US the terms "husband" and "wife" have particular social and legal ramifications that does not extend to a homosexual relationship in most states. No wonder the (US?) reporter was perplexed.
Second; I know of no one who has been "cruel" because of what the Bible says. Opinionated, morally opposed, ready to state what the Bible says, yes. That is not cruelty.
Third; if someone is so rude as to throw their alternative sexual preference "in my face", they should not be suprised if I give them my opinion in return. That is not homophobia, that is an exchange of ideas. I also do not have rap-o-phobia, paisley-o-phobia, drunk-o-phobia. Give me a break...
Lastly; I know nothing about the music industry, but people in general have a dislike for "different". Those who think different than I do will no doubt have a dislike for this post. I won't be suprised. I doubt one industry is much different that another, with the possible exception of military units.
spf
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-04 10:49
Re the bible:
Firstly it says almost nothing on the topic. It says more on some other topics which are carefully avoided by its followers.
Sencondly, it seems that there is considerable doubt among scholars who review the bible in the light of the environment in which it was written, that what is said to say is being correctly translated or interpreted. I think the jury's out on that one.
BTW, Monica writes "......those pervert guys out there who like that.... " Please be informed, Monica that many, many gay guys do not like or indulge in "that", and that there are probably more heterosexuals than gays living around you indulging in "that". "That", in fact, has little to do with the essence of being gay. It has more to do with how ANY pair of human beings chooses to interact.
However, as Mark would say, this is a clarinet forum, and discussion on other matters is likely to be expunged from the forum.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2002-05-05 04:21
First let me say....spf...you are right on.
Second...Gordon...the Bible does speak many times of homosexual activity in terms of not inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. Which may or may not be of interest to those who prefer "same sex".
Third...what the hell does any of this have to do with playing clarinet? And why should any of us care? People are who they are. Leonard Bernstein was as gay as they get. Ditto Elton John.
Does that negate their musical abilities and contributions? How about Rock Hudson? Jody Foster? If you believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, none of them will get to Heaven. But....
can't we enjoy them while they're here?
Again....I'm not sure what any of this has to do with clarinet....
except that when growing up in the late 50's early 60's...clarinet was a girl's instrument. If you wanted to show your manhood....
you had to play a brass instrument. I chose clarinet....and am not...nor would I ever consider homosexuality. Let's appreciate talent....not "what are they up to?"
Sincerely....the father of 5 kids
John Gibson
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-05 04:38
If you are not interested and don't care about the convolutions of the topic of this thread, then why are you here?
Sincerely .... Father of 6 kids.
But what has that got to do with anything?
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Author: BeckyC
Date: 2002-05-05 05:10
I think he was expressing the fact that Sexuality Should not be an issue in any situation outside of the bedroom.
In my opinion it should never be an issue with anyone but the two people involved in the privacy of their home.
Also in my opinion......having gay or lesbian organization is like having a ............sexual preference organization. For example........ the *"I like it on TOP group". The *"like to be spanked group"........and so on and so on. This is a private issue. Sorry for getting TOO visual........but by exclaiming that you are gay or lesbian puts those mental pictures in your head also. Which IMO is NOT something you share with others.
Just do what you do........and quit telling everybody. Respect people for being human and go on and play. (or work, or teach, or whatever)
Everyone has a right to privacy........and a right to live just as anyone else.......or different than anyone else if they so choose.
oh..........by the way. *THIS DOES NOT PERTAIN TO ME. I wouldn't tell you if it did. 
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-05 12:03
This thread has a lot to do with music as a career and thus a lot to do with clarinet playing.
Let's try and keep the Bible out of it, though. There's more interpretations of <b>that</b> book than you can shake a stick at, many of them contradictory, and all we really have is translations of translations.
Support clubs are nice things to have around when you're a minority ...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-05 12:05
You have a point Beckyc but it relates to a perfect society, which we don't have.
Sex is a very small part of being gay. Being gay has a profound effect on social interaction, legal issues, family concepts, work environment and social life in general, just as being straight does. It also subjects one to significant nasty behaviour from a significant chunk of society. (Imagine the repercussions of feeling you are the only straight person in your work/social circle who you perceive to be all gay)
So it is not quite like your examples.
Note also that it is normal human behaviour throughout society to seek social groups involving others who best understand us, be it electricians, badminton players, sax players, mothers, solo dads, etc. For many gay people it is VERY difficult to find others who really understand them. It can be very lonely. Because of this, suicide is a problem with young gay people.
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-05-05 18:39
My way of thinking is that any person can do whatever they want in the bedroom. The problem comes when others have to view any part of these actions. This goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. I am more offended by two heterosexuals "making out" on a park bench than two men walking down the street holding hand. (and vise versa).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-07 14:13
We are only 'offended' by something when we choose to be, upringing having a major influence on these choices.
Curtains are often not pulled in bedrooms in Holland. People choose NOT to be offended.
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Author: Josh Schultze
Date: 2002-05-07 15:53
I find this tread fascinating because as a gay teenager and clarinetist living in New York it is very applicable to me. First, regarding the issue of sexuality being a private matter. This is simply not the case. Sexuality is very public. We do many things that unknowingly reveal our sexual preferences. At school it is very clear what people's sexuality is. When a fellow opens up his locker and there's a picture of a scantily clad Britney Spears I know what his sexuality is. When a man and a woman walk down the street holding hands, I know what their sexuality is. When a man has a picture of his wife and kids at his office desk, I know what is sexuality is. When woman wears a wedding band I know she's not a virgin. So why is it considered "in your face" if I have a picture of my boyfriend in my locker? Or hold hands with my boyfriend? Does it make you visualize things? I certainly don't visualize things when I see man kissing his girlfriend goodbye.
As far as gays in the orchestra. I know several who are out among gay friends, but keep their sexuality shrouded among their colleagues. Because it is simply another thing that someone can hold against them. It's simply easier just to not say anything than risk offending someone. I also know a teacher at my school who is gay. I know it, I've seen him in the with his boyfriend walking their jack russell terrier together. However, at school, he is very "professional" and has no picures in his office of his boyfriend, keeps his clothing monochromatic and never counsels gay students. It is simply easier for him to keep his sexuality private than risk his career. So this is no different from clarinetists who have worked hard to achieve their goals. Being honest and open also means being open to hostility. And who needs that?
Take Care
Josh
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-05-08 02:54
I like what Josh is saying. Is it just me, or has most of the world gone homophobic? I'm not gay myself, but I have enough friends who are (or bisexual, which when it comes to these issues of prejudice is even WORSE!) It's just something to get used to. Like what Gordon said... People choose NOT to be offended. I just chose not to be offended if the person I was playing with was not heterosexual. He likes guys, I like girls, but at the moment the one thing we like is music.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-08 11:54
Josh presents the situation very well, and his examples barely touch the surface.
Thanks, David. You are my kind of guy.
When The gay me walks1 along the beach or park
With my 11-month daughter asleep in the baby carrier on my back,
And hand in hand with my 6 yr-old son,
Who's hand in hand with their lesbian mum,
Who conceived without sex or medical intervention...
That's when people look, and without a straying thought,
Put us in a comfortable heterosexual mould
And written in their eyes they say,
"What a delightfully close and happy normal family....
What fortunate children."
Its a pity in a way, don't you think, Josh.
:-)
But those who know this family well are so, so accepting;
There is nothing to validly reject..
The music of relationships has many forms.
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Author: Todd Wees
Date: 2002-05-08 21:24
Thank you Josh (a well-adjusted teenager?!) and Gordon (love your last line!) for your thoughtful and insightful posts to this query. (Sorry, pun sort of intended.)
Unfortunately, that the question has to be asked really answers itself, at least in a general sense, if not in the specific milieu of the orchestral musician. Still, I like to think there is evidence that we (humans) are becoming (albeit painfully slowly) more inclusive in our thinking about who our "neighbors" are -- you know the ones the (shhh, don't tell Mark) Bible says we should love as we love ourselves. After all, my clarinet playing has (slowly and painfully) improved; anything must be possible!
Todd W.
By the way, completely off the subject, I've heard it postulated that what makes us (humans) superior to the other species on this planet is not our opposable thumb, nor our use of tools or language. It's that we don't run from a vacuum cleaner.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-05-09 13:58
Hmmmmm.......I DO run from vacuum cleaners --- can't stand loud broadband noise --- perhaps I'm not human???
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-10 12:37
Todd Wees wrote:
you know the ones the (shhh, don't tell
> Mark) Bible says we should love as we love ourselves.
Mark thinks both books of the bible are "good books" - he's read a few versions cover to cover. Good moral guidance in some places - intolerance in others.
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