 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-04-26 06:34
many of you will be familiar with the concept of rotating your barrel and bell to find the best position re tone etc.... sometimes this may be because of how the parts were bored but i've always thought that the symetry of the cork joints must also be a significant factor. At least one mouthpiece i've owned has been significantly improved by being re-corked by a master, who matched it to a barrell so that it was properly centred.
In the last year or so i have become a bit dissatisfied with my B flat clarinet- and at Xmas i compared it to that of a friend visiting nz and was dismayed at how much more resonant her clarinet was. I am visiting the US in December, and thought i should visit Mr Ridenouer or someone similar to get my horn looked over....... the bore measured etc
....but then- on Monday i looked down the bore of my clarinet and noticed that the centre joint is not actually properly, um, centred. i tried rotating the joint- and found a spot where the cylinders of the two joints properly matched. So, i tried to play and hey presto- a great difference. I have tried a number of times comparing the scale in the two positions, as if i was finding the right spot for a barrel. The difference is clearly NOT just my imagination, and is audible to others, even when i play with my back to them they can tell which way i have the joint rotated. The intonation of the left hand lower register appears to be slightly improved- the tone and response of several notes other than middle C also benefit.
Hopefully Gordon (our local repairer, who sometimes visits sneezy), will be able to recork the joint so that it matches perfectly, and this will have the same effect. Hopefully. What i wondered is this- how many of the "blown out" clarinets that we talk about might actually be suffering similar problems? have other people experienced this effect- i've never heard it discussed.
nzdonald
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Author: Gorodn (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-26 14:33
Unless the timber (or metal cap) of a joint is a rather sloppy fit, it is the timber, not the cork, that determines the alignment of the two sections, and cannot be altered by messing with the cork.
Note that it is quite common for the outside of a tenon to be somewhat non-concentric with the bore. Presumably this occurs from changes in the timber since manufacture - that is asuming that during manufacture the body is held 'between centres' (centering on the bore) on a lathe while the tenons are turned.
Ever wondered why at least one of the current Selmer models has a significant STEP in diameter from the body to the barrel? Is it to increase resistance? Or maybe to increase turbulence to enrich the tone? I'm way out of my depth here. But I wonder if SOME players may claim that the off-centredness at a joint may actually IMPROVE the tone.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-04-26 15:54
Tom Ridenour told me--during a clainet "tweeking" session while he was still at LeBlanc--that the spacing left by pulling the middle joint for tuning purposes does not accoustically affect the clarinet--thus no need for tuning rings to take up the space left from tuning the middle section. So I would also suspect that the absolute pefect aliengment of the upper and lower bores is also not that critical to the sound you are hearing as long as the bores dimensions are the same. Perhaps the real accousticians out there can further enlighten us and comment on mid-joint aliengment. Good Clarineting!!!!!!!
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Author: Gerald
Date: 2002-04-26 18:11
I'll not discredit the field by calling myself a real musician, but I've found that pulling the center joint .03" on my Buffet Prestige greatly improves the tuning on all notes in the lower section. I machined a washer to exactly match the bore and have been using this. Just recently, on a suggestion forwarded to me by John Butler, I tried playing the same gap but without the washer. I found it to be an improvement, that is definitely noticable. I intend to make another washer, but make the opening perhaps 1-2 mm larger than the bore size and see what that does. I also found that pulling the bell a small bit also substantially improved the resonance of the lower notes, and richens the notes of the upper registers. Overall the instrument has a less strident, more resonant, richer chocolate-like tone (please pardon my imagery - I'm having lunch). It's finally giving me the type of sound I wanted from the instrument.
Now, all of the joints are concentric on my Buffet, but I wonder if a similar effect would occur with a slightly mismatched joint?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-04-26 19:04
I've been hoping to get some guidance on this subject of bore alignments. I've also seen that my clarinets are not optimally aligned in the middle joint. I've tried adding a bit of tape to the cork on various sides to improve it and I think it has. It would seem to be difficult to recork the middle joint in the right way to fix this.
The staples of modern oboes have a different diameter than the top of the oboes. This is considered necessary by oboe experts. I've seen that oboe reeds play better if aligned in a certain way. All my staples have been marked by me for best alignment. This is not so for my English horn. Thank you for this interesting post.
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Author: Gorodn (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-26 21:01
We wrote "I've seen that oboe reeds play better if aligned in a certain way."
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-26 21:06
Sorry about that!
Wess wrote "I've seen that oboe reeds play better if aligned in a certain way," which got me, the sceptic awondering.....
Nzdonald, when you realign the centre joint you play with your hands in an awkward position, which means you are probably puting pressure on your reed in a different way, like more on one side than the other. I wonder if this is the paramater you have been comparing.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-04-26 21:47
Gordon, please credit me with some intellegence! (re your hands comment) (not intended to sound grumpy)
1) i am talking about an improvement that has been noted after quite a bit of experimentation
2) Gordons comment about the "timber" being the problem is a good point, initially (4 years ago) the joint was a bit stiff, but is no longer so- suggesting that there has been some shrinkage etc at the joint
3) however, the effect of the cork affecting the alignment of the barrel and mouthpiece has been noted (admitedly, "before-after" tests are not possible making any improvement difficult to prove). My old Zinner mouthpiece 'faced by Brad Behn was greatly improved by this- the cork had become visibly "irregular". This was quite an extreme case where the improvement was without doubt. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
4) a "step" in the bore may increase resistance, and may be beneficial. The "step" created by the reversed conical bore in the barrel decreased the distortion created by pulling your barrel out to tune... for example. This is, however, a different kettle of fish altogether, and is (assumedly) symetrical. There are many ways to increase resistance in your setup, i doubt that an asymetrical centre joint provides many benefits that can't be acomplished another way, and without creating problems to offset the (hypothetical) advantages. but......
5) yes, ok, re my first posting- i registered an improvement in the lower register performance by rotating the clarinet at the middle joint, but also (and didn't mention) that the upper register notes played with less resistance, which may be considered a disadvantage by another player.
donald
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-04-26 23:34
Yes, I heard John Mack comment about oboe reeds playing better depending upon which side was up but I didn't try it until many years later. Having tried aligning them and marking them, I also feel this to be the case and have noted that in tying on new cane to a previously-marked staple that the orientation is the same. This suggests that it is the staple to bore interface that is sensitive to alignments. Thanks for continuing this interesting discussion.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-27 18:31
An interesting discussion, I've turned oboe reeds around also, didn't help me much! We have touched on the "tuning gap" before, it makes sense to me that it cant help, and MIGHT hurt tonality. Of course the "viscosity" of air ia VERY low, as the standing wave response of the bore to fingering change is mighty fast [for our pros, that is!], so at least I need expert consultation. Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-27 18:54
Don Berger wrote:
> We have touched on the "tuning gap"
> before, it makes sense to me that it cant help, and MIGHT hurt
> tonality.
T%his is where what we think and what is true may differ. Experiments have been made with natual horns, and dimples and imperfections made by hand forming improve intonation and tone, and those horns require fewer vent holes (article was in Scientific American, my volumes are 1500 miles away, unfortunately).
Perhaps a minor mismatch, bore roughness, or asymmetry is a <b>good</b> thing in some cases.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-27 20:11
Very true, Mark, strictly a matter of OPINION, little or no technological basis AND subject to non-tech experience and equating with fluid flow [ChE] education-experience. Granted I went too far, what we DON'T know about cl acoustics [in spite of reading Benade {H S & H as in Sci Am}] is immense! Peace, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-27 20:53
Don, in regard to fluid flow (I think you've studyed or worked with that), surfaces that are too smooth have more drag than those that have minute imperfections (laminar skin effect) at low-medium flow rates. But, in any case, the clarinet doesn't compare with a steady-state flow mechanism (flow is only a result of powering a generator, not an end unto itself) and at the etremely low flow rates involved in a clarinet I wouldn't expect major changes.
But discontinuities or rapid changes in bore diameters will create acoustic mismatches that may or may not be deleterious; indeed, the stepped bore of Carree's design does just that with a resultant change in intonation that is best thought of as at least unexpected.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2002-04-28 19:41
"perhaps.... bore mismatch is a good thing in some cases" etc etc etc.... the funny thing is, everybody who has written here has provided evidence/ideas that are neutral- ie it might prove good, might prove bad.... but have written in a way that suggests they don't value MY evidence which showed that the mismatched bore alignment made a negative effect on my clarinet (and that re-aligning this improved the instrument).
i'm actually quite a discerning clarinet player, and would not make the postings above without having really felt that i was acurately describing the performance of my instrument. Since the original posting the instrument has been listened to and played by a number of my proffessional colleagues, and the "effect" i noted was affirmed. This included playing to the Principal flute of the NZSO, who listened from different sides etc.
whatever
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-28 20:23
No, nzdonald, we're not dismissing your evidence. But ... it's anecdotal and only reflects one data point. It doesn't prove anything one way or another. I'm sure the mismatch did what you say it did but no unequivocal determination can be made from it.
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