 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aa
Date: 2002-04-13 19:47
Does anyone else think that the whole concept of marching band is downright oppressive to instrument players? Some say it helps develop rhythm, but haven't most of those who are old enough to march already learned such basic things? When I was in high school marching band, I only endured marching season so that I could experience concert season. Our school didn't let winds into the orchestra; they had to be in band. Only occasionally did the band play with the orchestra. I almost wish I had picked up the violin instead, but I like the more humanistic sound of a clarinet or a few other wind instruments, than the stringy ones. How would it be possible to campaign successfully for public Texas schools to get rid of marching bands? Heaven forbid music programs should be about music! Marching band has just been created as subservient to football, and was never about music. The sound of a marching band even sucks; I've listened to the top bands in the nation (not just colleges) marching, and they all sound terrible! I'm done ranting--anybody with similar and/or opposing views?
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2002-04-13 20:46
Ouch!!! I'm sorry to hear you don't like marching band. I've been marching for 5 years and I absolutely love it! Who needs a sorority or fraternity when you've got 200 of the best friends you'll ever have in marching band? I will admit that marching band CAN be less musical than, say, concert band, but keep in mind that they serve a different purpose. Marching band's role is to rev up the school spirit, and entertain the crowd with accessible music. I've seen Rachmoninoff (sp?) done on a football field, but the audience wasn't as pumped about it. I have to disagree that "the sound of a marching band even sucks." My marching band gives people chills every time we play the national anthem and our alma mater. That's a reaction any ensemble strives to attain. One last tidbit of info. You will NEVER get Texas schools to give up marching band. They have some of the best programs (high school and college) in the nation, and they're sure not about to give them up. If you can, try to give marching band another chance. You may be surprised how fun, and muscical, it can be.
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-04-13 21:37
I am not a great fan of marching band either, but I hate to tell you, I don't think you'll ever have success getting rid of marching band in TX. It would be like trying to get rid of football in TX. It's not going to happen. I think the best option is to strive for programs for winds in addition to marching band. These could be something as big as another band or as small as getting students involved in solo and duet work. Woodwind and brass quintets as well as percussion ensembles are a good place to start.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-13 21:58
Marching band is a great form of entertainment for parades and (US style) football games. Sometimes it's great choreography, too. It lets you play your instruments while walking in a very structured manner.
Notice I said nothing about music ...
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2002-04-13 22:00
I live in CT, but I can honestly say that TX has one of the finest programs in the country. Marching bands are very musical and fun to be in. When I was in my high school marching band, I had the time of my life! Be careful what you say.
Kim L.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-04-13 22:01
Marching band is to music as television "wrestling" is to sports...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-13 22:03
Kim L. wrote:
>
> Marching bands are very
> musical
How? You can't concentrate on playing while you're bob-bob-bobbing along, you can't be heard, your dynamics are loud and louder, ...
I could go on and on. That's not music. It's entertainment; it might be fun for the crowd, it might be fun for the performers, but that's a completely different thing.
Sousa's band <b>played</b> marches - they didn't march ...
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-13 22:27
Marching band may be plenty of fun....but....much more than that, it's a testament to the general decline of quality of public school music education, especially in Texas.
Let's get out there and win that blue ribbon...ya'll hear....and don't forget to have fun.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2002-04-13 22:29
Well, I did enjoy PLAYING the marches. There are some pretty fun clarinet parts.
And I agree about the great friendships and memories from marching band. My university band went lots of places and did lots of things. No regrets about the experience . . . but once is enough, thank you.
(Marching band is one of the reasons I'm glad I DIDN'T major in music.)
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Author: Aa
Date: 2002-04-13 22:29
I just thought I'd clarify that I don't even find bands entertaining; it would be much better if it were just a large conglomeration of dancers. Possibly, though, the band, if it really wanted to be fancy, could carry around low-sensitivity mikes, all wirelessly (digitally, if need be, but I know throughputand bandwidth would be a problem), broadcasting, each instrument, simultaneously to the crowd, who would wear special earphones. I do believe it is possible to march well and play very well, but I don't think it is as possible to sound very aesthetically pleasing in the least bit. ideally, we could march in giant French post-baroque cathedrals, but that might desecrate the cathedrals, according to Catholics (you know how the flag corp. can get). I also don't think marching band was very fun at all. I didn't know Sousa's band didn't march. I wish Karl King had more time to compose and get everything else out of the way...he might have explored the modern forum, and happily, eventually betrayed the circus. My band director, when we were driving back to the school after a practice in his pickup, secretly confided to me after I accidentally implied that marching band was not the most enjoyable thing in the world, that he would die happy if the concept of marching bands was obliterated, and we could all dwell happily in the world of liberated musicians playing decent horns.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-04-13 22:35
...and let's not even begin to assess the damage to a high school concert band program after initially "writing off" the first 3 months of the school year, and then taking valuable time away for having to "undo" the fine tonality that was achieved by playing FFF for 12 weeks...GBK
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-04-13 23:01
I must add my comments, seeing how I am presently in a marching band myself...
Pardon my bluntness, but I think this is going the wrong way.
Some marching bands don't concentrate on loudness. Our band would concentrate on tonality, building, listening across vast distances, and eventually getting to the point where when we DID play fff, it would be with good tone and (Oh My Gosh!!!) in tune, piccolos and all. Our band director constantly worked with us more about how we sounded and less about our movement, until it sounded wonderful. THEN we concentrated on the visual aspect. If you pay attention, the movements can become almost their own art form, like ballet.
I've seen audiences come to football games just to see the marching band show (and not because the football team was bad.). I've seen drum majors conducting with tears in their eyes because the music is so moving. I've seen more devotion as a team to the biggest high school band competitions than I've seen anywhere else (much less concert festivals)
I admit that concert band and marching band are apples and oranges, but why dog on the orange because it tastes different? Marching band is an art in itself.
(Perhaps it's just because I march brass in the off-seaon...)
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-04-13 23:08
For those who really want to read a whole pile of dreck on this subject (or something related to it), you might want to check out this thread of not-too-long-ago.
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=60018&t=59910
Then again, you might not.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-13 23:12
David, no matter how hard you try, massed clarinets sounds like ... well, an accordion. Not a particularly bad instrument, but not like a clarinet.
Any finesse in tone you might think you have is lost. It has to be secondary. The crowd isn't there to <b>listen</b> to you - if they were, they'd at least be quiet in an auditorium, not yelling in the stands outside. They're there to <b>see</b> you.
Drum & bugle corps are great outside. "Marching bands" are and oxymoron.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-13 23:15
C'mon Larry - there's plenty more threads on this! Normally it breaks out late every summer. We're just getting a jump start ;^)
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Author: willie
Date: 2002-04-13 23:59
If had only attended the halftimes featuring out own beloved band, I would tend to agree with Aaron. A couple years ago we (my family) attended the local 4-A and 5-A competitions and we were very impressed. Some schools even had the clarinets and flutes on remote mics so they could be heard better and the tuning and tone was wonderful. There was one school that did come out blasting as hard as they could and it was horrible. The tubas and trombones sounded like a herd of flatulating elephants. It depends, I guess on the ability and expectations of the band direct as to how you play your program.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-14 00:06
willie wrote:
>
> Some schools even had the clarinets
> and flutes on remote mics so they could be heard better and the
> tuning and tone was wonderful.
Would that they spend the few dollars they have on music instead of electronics ...
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-14 00:30
I can "see" it now...a classic problem for many North American public school music programs.....a Friday night for the marching band at the football game.
Great "tone" is heard from the marching band as the jet fly-by overhead roars over the playing field...followed by the fight (police) in the parking lot...then of course the throng going to the concession stands for nachos and a drink. A Mom yelling, that's my boy, camera in hand.
And on the field, I'm sure one can hear the wonderful sounds being made by a fellow clarinet player across about 10 yards of playing field..this while the drum line and "pit" are banging away. Ah, the pure essence of great ensemble playing?
These points do not address an even bigger problem. Marching band is not even in the "official" curriculum of most public schools.
In large (sub)urban schools in the State of Texas, marching band for the most part, has gotten out of control. Why? That's a great question to ask on any music phorum.
Is it because our music teachers can't teach music?
How about it's a lot easier (for everyone)? (I'm sure to hear about the tremendous sacrifices made....I wonder what kind of progress would/could be made on an individuals instrument if the same sacrifice was made to quality practice?)
Is it the Era of entertainment syndrome???
How about limited attention span....most half time shows are 8-10 minutes (once again for everyone)??
Win the blue ribbon?
Or is it simply that we want to have fun?
Is it that we really are not being taught what it is to become a fine young musician?? (Do/did many of our current music educators even know themselves?)
I've been working hard on answering these questions and others for a long while now.
Marching an art form? At what level? How about this: should it be the objective of the public school art teacher to teach students (for half the school year) how to paint Elvis on Velvet? I'm sure that some limited aspects of fundamental art could be taught in this process. What about the result/product? I'm guessing that some people would call Elvis on Velvet very high quality art. I would not be one of those people. Why? It's a function of my education and experience. Would you consider the teacher of that art class responsible? Did that teacher meet the objectives or even the spirit of the art department's formal curriculum?
Should marching band take up half of a public school year? After considering that, read your official school district music curriculum and see if the words marching band are in the book...other than to say, "(wind players/percussionists) if you don't participate in marching band, you can't participate in any other music class"..the case in many/most school districts in Texas. It's called exclusion.
And for GBK...
marching band is to quality music education as Elvis on Velvet is to Monet
I'm not saying that you can't enjoy Elvis on Velvet. I will say that music educators have a greater responsibility. Accountability is a word we hear often these days in education. Why is it that administrators are not holding music educators accountable when they don't fullfill their obligation to the offical music curriculum? Is it the fact that many students, teacher, administrators and parents have confused the real objectives related to music education?
Entertain, entertain, entertain......or educate?
Marching in moderation.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-04-14 01:00
> Is it because our music teachers can't teach music?
> How about it's a lot easier (for everyone)? (I'm sure to hear about the tremendous
> sacrifices made.... I wonder what kind of progress would/could be made on an individuals
> instrument if the same sacrifice was made to quality practice?)
> Is it the Era of entertainment syndrome???
> How about limited attention span....most half time shows are 8-10 minutes
> (once again for everyone)??
> Win the blue ribbon?
> Or is it simply that we want to have fun?
> Is it that we really are not being taught what it is to become a fine young musician??
> (Do/did many of our current music educators even know themselves?)
I didn't think of this before, but this discussion just now brought it up. What if a good reason for marching bands to exist goes deeper than all these areas mentioned above by Forest?
For example...
ROTC programs (Reserve Officer's Training Corps) don't have this major dream to prepare you for military service. They teach you leadership ability and responsibility and how to work in a team, how to be a better citizen: not how to be a soldier.
Now, compare marching band. EVERYONE in marching band has to work as a team. You can't have a staight line on a feild if no one can agree on where and how fast the line moves or even how long it is or where it starts! No team, no picture, all mayhem!
Concert band focuses on teamwork in a different matter: sound. If everyone has different versions of pp or fff, it's gonna be horrid no matter what happens. And what if one person's accelerando is faster than someone else's? We can't rely ENTIRELY on a director! We have to know our stuff!
Conclusion to this hypotheses: Marching band isn't so much making someone a better musician. Just a follow-up formula with the teamwork one needs to make it in life.
Now, think if you have a marching band that has all but lived with each other for three or four months. Everyone knows each other rather well or can at least predict behaviors on stage, right??
What can they do now as a team that won't involve too much teaching of newbies?
How about move on to concert band? (which is better musically than marching band IMHO, don't get me wrong.) It seems to fit very well. And if you can manage to get the clarinets to sound a little better than usual en masse, all the better because they will know how to adjust.
Those who don't want concert band, go to orchestra or drum corps. Concert band seems to get the better of both worlds.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-04-14 01:02
'Way out here in California, many school districts schedule Marching Band classes during the regular school day, and participating students earn credit for Physical Education. I think this rather helps to put all that tromping around in perspective. It isn't for the sake of music; it's primarily for the exercise.
Regards,
John
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2002-04-14 02:12
In SC, where I live and play, marching bands are very competitive. At my school, we have a marching band and supposedly a concert band. Our concert band is only a class, and usually it gets ditched after 2 weeks for a 70 person "jazz band". In the 2 weeks it does take place, we play lame arrangements of decent pieces of music. We have no horns, but in our "concert band" we use mellophones, bell-front baritones, and sousaphones. But our marching band is 170 people, and we play all the dumb marching band stuff. (bad arrangements of 70s rock songs) And everybody in the town thinks it is wonderful, because they have never heard decent music, but if it is loud, they like it. We do not even do well at marching contests, because we are not even a great marching band, but it's loud, so people like us. But concert band, nothing. As long as I can remember, we have never, ever gone to concert festival, and the people we have that go to solo & ensemble play stuff out of the 6th grade method book. And that bothers me, because they think they are the best, and others of us are playing the Osborne Rhapsody and the Mozart concerto. But I'm finished complaining now.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-04-14 02:15
Forest...Actually my marching band / wrestling metaphor was meant to show that both venues are scripted events, with carefully choreographed movements, that produce very predictable results which is passed off to a gullible audience as entertainment.
That saddest part...people pay good money to attend and support both events...GBK
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-14 02:43
David,
"team work" is one of the ultimate goals of any musical organization...it's not just limited to, or exclusive of marching band. I've heard this argument many times before. A poor effort to validate some exclusive value that marching band offers.
Band students work together day in and day out in a concert band. This "team work" is not something exclusive to marching band.
Are you trying to say that marching band does a better job of teaching co-operation or collaboration? Or to go your step further...life skills? A stretch.
I will say that you get your exercise...hence the P.E. credit.
Some of the "leadership" behavior I've observed in Texas marching bands borders on a very destructive cult mentality.
*Note: Don't ever bring up the word cult when talking to a school administrator...it makes them squirm....a lot.
I don't need marching band to teach music students leadership and responsibility.
I don't need marching band to teach music students how to work with others.
I don't need marching band to teach music students how to turn a phrase.
I don't need marching band to teach music students how to play in-tune.
I don't need marching band to teach music students how to play with a good sound.
Students can get all of these things and more from a well run music education program...even a program without a marching band.
The fact is..marching band needs the student a lot more than the student needs marching band. This is why schools in Texas force kids to participate.
A very sad commentary....
I have often observed terrible ridicule by fellow band students when a student quits band because of a marching band out of control. My daughter being one of these. Statements like, "couldn't take it", "you let the band down"; band parents saying, "if your child quits band, they are going to get into trouble".... other statements so abusive that they are not worthy of repeating.
My daughter went on to perform in the Greater Dallas Youth Orchestra and enjoyed the experience. She learned a lot about music. Her orchestra director/teacher was a Mexican national (he once commented that they don't have marching bands in Mexico). He was a very fine conductor as well as educator. He is now the conductor/professor of conducting for the orchestra program at TCU. What drove my daughter out of the public school music program? Her high school band was required to meet 24-30 hours outside of school each week for the marching band season. This was not acceptable. She was a member of the Ac-Dec (academic decathlon) team and while she was a fine young musician, her academics were far more important. She was lucky with her music. She found a way to further her music education as well as make the grades that she needed to realize her life goals. She was accepted into Boston College this past year (I'm proud to say she made the Dean's list her first two semesters). How about that, she quit band and didn't become a mass murderer. She and I both feel that she would have been able to stay in band and maintain top grades had the marching band situation not been so ludicrous. She benefited all around...the local band program lost out. Many other kids in her class quit as well. My daughter and her peers had more to offer the band than the band had to offer them. Marching band to the exclusion of a good music education was not enough for these kids. I know that this example is extreme, but many programs in our area (Dallas) are just as extreme. (Texas suburban ISD's in general)
ROTC....
Interesting. Of course you have probably thought about the history and development of the "marching band". It all has to do with war.
Two army's needing something loud to signal their troops. The fife, drum...trumpet, perfect. On to battle.
What troops do our modern "marching bands" move on to battle? The two rival football teams. Unfortunately now the kids in these public school bands think of themselves as combatants (marching band contests).
This marching business is a complex issue...I feel that the discussion is important. Very few of the students in band ever go on to become professional musicians...but many become the very backbone of the highest forms of culture in our society. Let's hope that these band kids end up with an education that places value on quality education over entertainment.
Moderation in marching band.
Regards,
F. Aten
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-14 03:03
GBK,
I understood....and enjoyed....
And wouldn't it be great if we could get these same people to pay for quality education...in any field.
Forest
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2002-04-14 04:27
Back to the first post... How does one have an orchestra without winds?! (Isn't that a "string ensemble?")
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2002-04-14 05:16
What about massed trumpets? I would think they sound worse than massed clarinets. I would always say that marching band is for the brass only. Marching band is like choir--a fun social gathering. Choirs can be more musical, though. Even the top college marching bands in this country aren't very good. They can march, but they can't play! Or, they can play, but can't march.
If we think this poorly for marching bands, then what about drum corps? I love to watch them and they make some great music. But...
Kim L.
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Author: rmk
Date: 2002-04-14 05:46
Here in Connecticut a music director was recently let go because the principal (!!!) said there was not enough emphasis on entertaintment in the music program. In other words, the band didn't win enough trophies.
BTW, does anyone else think the whole concept of competion in music is a bit bizarre? Does the Boston Symphony compete against the Cleveland Orchestra?
Even in an audition you are not playing against anyone, but rather for the committee who will decide to hire you (or not).
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Author: ginny
Date: 2002-04-14 05:51
I love watching my kid's marching band. I saw UCLA's rehearse... I loved it. They were exciting, chilling, talented hardworking. Lighten up...there's plently of good in marching bands...don't do it if you don't like it. My kids marching band has a demanding schedule...but he aced all his other classes except woodshop. (Taking the top science and math courses.) He loves marching band, and his director has a good non-marching program too. I'm a fan.
It is a part of making a big community that has places in it for many many kid. 9% of the school marches, they have a very none selective squad of cheerleaders and dance team. I think they have about 50 girls (no guys) on drill and cheer teams! The football team is huge too. I think more than 15% of the kids are involved directly, and they make room for all who are interested! Community helps kids stay in school and want to do well at school. The parents get really involved. Every parent who showed up at the school board meeting this month was a band parent, I knew, from marching. It makes a community...and that has great value. So what if the music program isn't aimed at producing symphony musicians! Our kids are doing well and feel they belong.
Ginny
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-14 06:08
Ginny,
No one's arguing that marching band isn't fun, or entertaining, or even good for social interaction.
But it's not a music program - and unfortunately in many places 3 months or more of marching band, not to mention the many after-school or summer hours spent learning drills, is held in lieu of a music program.
My middle kid doesn't mind marching band at all, and that's just fine, but he misses out on a music education one third of every school year. I'd rather they run it like they run his jazz band - jazz band is an elective, credit class held right after normal hours at the school. But instead they subtract marching band hours from the symphonic band hours during the school year 9ther's no orchestra at our school).
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-04-14 06:10
"No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public" - Mencken
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Author: Tracey
Date: 2002-04-14 07:14
It's unfair to make a generalization about marching band substituting for other forms of musical education because that isn't always the case.
I'm not sure about other places in the country, but in Hawaii, every high school marching band that is competitive also has a concert band program that is concurrent during school hours. I think that holding both at the same time allows for greater musicality and expression, not to mention tone development. Especially for clarinets, it's really good because the "marching band embouchure" doesn't set in as much as it would because of the concert band repertoire that is being prepared at the same time.
I also agree that marching bands will never be as musical as concert bands in a great auditorium or concert hall, especially not while moving. But isn't the challenge to perform as musically as possible? The musicians of yesteryear didn't exactly perform in the same conditions that we do right now, especially with archaic instruments and equipment. Marching bands do strive to play in tune, provide contrasting sections in dynamics, tempo, and perform musical phrases. I've been in marching band for 2 years and our director has always told us to "not to focus on being a marching band, but rather a BAND that just happens to march". I hope everyone who marches keeps that in mind.
To the comment made that musicians don't compete: Professional musicians do hold musical contests and these are often much more bitter because of the prize money factor. A symphony member coaches our quartet afterschool and he told us of a competition he won in Venice, Italy. I believe the prize was 8 million lira (which was funny because it was really only a couple thousand dollars) ;-D . Also, don't high school music programs attend parade of band, parade of orchestra, and other contests to be rated by judges. Are these different from marching band competitions?
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Author: Tracey
Date: 2002-04-14 07:20
Oops, I also forgot something.
For those of you who think the best college marching bands are all of poor quality (again, another generalization, like all professional symphony orchestras are good), I challenge you to find recordings of the best college marching bands. This is for the people who haven't heard them before, obviously, so don't take offense if you have heard them before. I can't affect your opinions on them. However, try to have a fair, unbiased judgement. Keep in mind that playing outdoors is always tricky, for musicians of any caliber, so maybe indoor marching band ensembles could also be listened to. I hope that maybe some of you will be surprised because if you aren't, well then, you have high standards to appease, and that is fine also. I just hope this isn't extended to high school concert band programs of any kind that won't always be playing at such a high level.
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Author: E. Michael Blake
Date: 2002-04-14 07:38
I agree that marching band isn't a "music program" in the sense that it develops full-scope improvement of musicianship. I also agree that priorities are often skewed in connection with marching band, to the detriment of a school's concert band. But let's remember the realities with which many school programs must contend.
An instrumental music program in a high school takes up a good-sized chunk of physical plant (the main rehearsal room, a number of practice rooms, instrument & equipment storage rooms, at least one office, sometimes even a closed-circuit broadcast facility), and requires investment in equipment that can be used only within the program (various relatively obscure instruments needed to cover all parts of arrangements, plus string basses, heavy percussion, and other items kids aren't expected to drag to and from school every day). In many towns, a concert series in a school auditorium won't bring enough visibility to the program to justify the expense every year at budget time. Marching band at football games (and pep band at basketball games, and so on) provides more visibility, and gives the impression that the music program is an active, involved part of the school's larger community. A chess club can get away with being viewed as elite or aloof, because it doesn't cost nearly as much as an instrumental music program.
Also, on the subject of that larger community, if there were to be an active debate in a town about the purpose of a music program, we might see that there's a sharp division between those who want to set the priority on letting each participant raise her or his skill to the highest level possible, and those who want to provide a place for those who just aren't able to raise the skill very far. A musically-undemanding marching band arrangement is more likely to be played adequately by an eager but limited performer than is a more rigorous concert piece. Here in sneezy.org (a name I hope to keep using after the server switchover/nonprofit filing) we seem to get many postings from precocious young soloists and honors-orchestra players, and that's fine, I wish you folks well and look forward to hearing your works in broader venues. But--again at budget time--music directors are probably reminded that the taxpayers expect that the last-chair players be made welcome in the overall musical environment, as long as they want to participate.
The end result is that we get marching bands, which never seems to strike parents as ridiculous, because it's an activity that essentially doesn't exist at all outside of school. As few careers as there may be in music overall, there appear (to me, at least) to be essentially none in marching band, outside the armed forces. (Henri Mancini, whom one would think of as having been a success, was once quoted as saying that the only way to make money in the music business is to sell band uniforms. I gather he was referring to schools.) My own experience colors my attitude here, because I thought that marching band was a drag. But I also thought that pep band was a gas, and this gets me onto a touchier point in this (yawn) long posting.
I hope music programs can foster artistry, but I have no problem with them providing entertainment. I think it's important for every musician to learn how to entertain (in the sense of pleasing or satisfying an audience). Also, kids--and adults--are entitled to enjoy themselves playing music, have fun with it. I don't see entertainment exclusively as pandering to the backbrain twitches of soulless philistines (though that may be the more lucrative form of it). There's merit in amusing and surprising an audience, as well as in expressing the artistic soul.
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2002-04-14 12:27
Only 12 weeks of marching band? NO! Not at our school. We start "band camp" the last week of July. And our football team is always good, and goes to upper-state championships, which are always the week after thanksgiving. And not to mention all those Christmas and New Year's Parades.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-04-14 13:18
I did not read every post, but there is one particulare important element that I must script.
Adminstration/School Boards in my state demand marching bands. End of story. They see this as a publicity vehicle and to a certain extent they are correct. More people will attend football games in the fall than most schools can get to attend their concerts in the spring. The only audience members, usually, for the spring concerts will be the immediate family and perhaps a grandparent(s). I had a very supportive principal that showed up for EVERY concert and usually even gave a small "appreciative" talk to the audience either before (mostly) or sometimes after my concert performances. However, this was only at one school(I was there for nine years.) At the other schools I taught I RARELY saw a principal, superintendant, or school board member. On the flip side, most were there for EVERY football game. Now, where do you think they place the importance of music education? The decision for the music educator then is: Do I stay in state and put up with the stress on marching band? Is there a state where there isn't such an emphasis on marching band? (I don't know of one.) Finally, do I teach orchestra instead?
jbutler
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-04-14 13:25
In many cases, the physical education department could run the marching band, for all that it has to do with music. It also is a way that many schools use the band as another competitive sport. In many cases, I have heard a lot of young clarinetists who sound like *%#! from spending far too much time outside blowing their butts off trying to compete with the brass.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-04-14 13:44
Perhaps I haven't made something clear. Our school plays concert band music during class rehearsals and then spends after-school practices on marching band stuff. Our "Concert season" doesn't get a reprieve. It's almost all-year-round.
I can see a lot of other schools don't play any concert music during the band's "off-season" because they spend too much time focusing on the marching band's stuff. Ironically, we're one of the best marching bands in the county, and perhaps because we DO play concert band stuff while others don't...
(Also, I know that you can develop those same skills I fought for above elsewhere, but it just seems to me that marching band would be a good place to develop them under the right environment. So you don't "need" marching band to teach them these things... but it's still a good way to get the job done if you still spend time focusing on non-marching band ability during the marching season.)
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2002-04-14 15:23
Try going to a private school with NO FOOTBALL. No football = no marching band (thank god!). The jazz combo plays at some of the soccer games...
String quartet can be pretty intense, though. We play every time the Board of Trustees feels like throwing a sedate party (the non-sedate ones get the jazz band).
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Author: eilidh
Date: 2002-04-14 18:44
I love playing marches, particularly as there are some good eflat parts!
However, our band has suddenly decided that we are going to do some marching - out of the blue. I hate to think of the total chaos this will be, particurlarly as we have never marched before, and I'm not particularly looking forward to it.
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Author: Sarah
Date: 2002-04-14 21:21
Marches are different from marching. Most marches are meant to be performed in a concert setting. Like Sousa marches. Most bands march to rock and popular songs, like "Wild Thing" "The Hey Song" as well as their school song.
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Author: Joe O'Kelly
Date: 2002-04-15 01:47
Marching band can be fun. However, in my school I had the option of being in marching band or opting out while still being in the top band, Symphonic Orchestra, Jazz bands, ect... I had to opt not to do the marching band my junior year for health reasons among other things. How stupid would it have been if I couldn't be in the music program my Junior year because I couldn't march. I think it utterly rediculous when I hear that students have to participate in marching band to be in the music program.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-04-15 01:50
"total chaos" - I laughed - this was exactly my first experience at marching with the schools' band. At least - it started out as chaos and then ended up being quite good (organised) chaos.
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2002-04-15 05:40
How does one get a good tone and good intonation on the clarinet, when it is bobbing around in your mouth, your reed is drying out, and you are playing on a plastic clarinet?
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Author: Brad
Date: 2002-04-15 06:29
Sneakers,
The goal of marching correctly is to keep the upper body as still as possible. I don't know what kind of marching band you are talking about, but the glide step is used so that if the legs weren't seen, the upper body would be motionless. Maybe you bob it around in your mouth, but gee, professional players do that too!
If the reed were bobbing around in your mouth...how can it dry out? It dries out way way better in standard orchestral repertoire.
Plastic clarinets can still produce good tone! It's not the clarinet, it's the player and the mouthpiece right?
I'm beating a dead horse aren't I? (I heard that expression on tv heehee)
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-04-15 06:45
This entire THREAD has turned into a "dead horse" as you so eloquently put it.
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Author: BeckyC
Date: 2002-04-15 15:08
As I came through Jr. High and High School, We had a Marching Season and a Concert Season.
Although we had to work harder in the Dead Heat of the Summer to be ready for the Marching Season, It was all a learning experience. It was More of a TEAM work kind of leason. You really had to be dedicated to do a GOOD job at it.
Not many kids cared enough about "playing" to really be GOOD at it. But then We really had a chance to SHINE during our Concert Season. Although the Marching Season was a BLAST, The Football Games were fun, especially the AWAY games, the Concert Season was the Highlight of the whole year. To those who really were serious about playing their instrument to the best of their ability.
IT IS really Apples to Oranges. Two different learning experiences.
Wouldn't have missed it for the world.
JMHO,
Becky
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-15 15:36
Now granted, I read some of the posts and only skimmed others. My feelings are this about marching bands:
1. Musically, they are what you make of them. Directors can cultivate music abilities by music selection and their own music program. Yes, generally the music does suffer for the movement.
2. Yes, the main purpose is to entertain. If you are not entertained, oh well, but don't condemn it. I consider NASCAR ridiculous, but I don't care if others do find it amusing. The main thing is to not be part of the herd mentality and like what everyone else likes (this explains Britney Spears).
3. It opens doors for people who might not ever get to participate in a musical group. To dispell some misinformation, on a college level, very few marching band participants are music majors. So when a marching band plays a Shostakovich piece or Earl Kluge, it may be the only contact most of them will have with a broad range of music styles.
Speaking of opening doors, many of the people I marched with had some pretty great gigs through their marching band experience. They marched in Olypmic Bands, the re-dedication of the Statue of Liberty festivities, presidential ignauguration bands and Monte Carlo's annivesary of the country. (The entire band got flown to Monte Carlo).
I marched in a well-known college band that people came back into the stands to watch the half-time show and stayed for the post-game show. We also did promotional stuff with Disney. We were more important than the football team and everyone knew it.
So those of you who choose to take the high-brow approach to marching bands, don't look down upon those who do/did enjoy their marching experience, because it wasn't really music. We have/had fun. (The band trips weren't too bad either!)
Aaron, I am sorry you didn't have a good time, but at a young age it sounds as if you need to lighten up a bit. If you think it is "oppresive," pick up a brass instrument and take a front row field position. It may change your point of view.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-15 17:38
Betsy wrote:
>
> Now granted, I read some of the posts and only skimmed
> others. My feelings are this about marching bands:
>
> 1. Musically, they are what you make of them.
Sure they are. The music is loud, louder, loudest. The rhythm is, well, marchable (which means pretty simple). The music is simple so you can mnarch those pretty steps.
> 2. Yes, the main purpose is to entertain. If you are not
> entertained, oh well, but don't condemn it.
No one here has condemned marching band per se. Just like after-school sports aren't "condemned". But ... they are after school sports ...
> 3. It opens doors for people who might not ever get to
> participate in a musical group.
Wait. We're talking here about schools that mandate marching band if you want to be in symphonic band. If some members of symphonic band want _not_ to march, why should they be forced to? For those who want to march but _don't_ want to be in symphonic band - why should _tjhey_ be forced to endure what they don't want?
> To dispell some misinformation,
> on a college level, very few marching band participants are
> music majors.
See point 1 above. It reinforces it.
> So when a marching band plays a Shostakovich
> piece or Earl Kluge, it may be the only contact most of them
> will have with a broad range of music styles.
That sure as heck ain't playing Kluge or Shostakovitch the way the composers write the music!
> Speaking of opening doors, many of the people I marched with
> had some pretty great gigs through their marching band
> experience. They marched in Olypmic Bands, the re-dedication of
> the Statue of Liberty festivities, presidential ignauguration
> bands and Monte Carlo's annivesary of the country. (The entire
> band got flown to Monte Carlo).
Yup. What's that got to do with music?
> I marched in a well-known college band that people came back
> into the stands to watch the half-time show and stayed for the
> post-game show. We also did promotional stuff with Disney. We
> were more important than the football team and everyone knew it.
Yup. What's that got to do with music?
> So those of you who choose to take the high-brow approach to
> marching bands, don't look down upon those who do/did enjoy
> their marching experience, because it wasn't really music. We
> have/had fun. (The band trips weren't too bad either!)
Because we're saying something that you seemed to have missed - marching band is _not_ part of a music education. It is a great after-school activity for those that want to, but it is a horrid waste of taxpayer dollars when it's part of a curriculum that purports to be about music.
I wrestled in high school - it was great fun, I had great trips, but no one said it was part of a class on human psychology. Even though good wrestlers use psychology all the time.
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Author: BeckyC
Date: 2002-04-15 18:27
Again..........JMHO........
Aaron,
Relax.......High School is only for a "Season". It will be over before you know it. Enjoy it while you can. You will have a life time to pursue what you will.
In a perfect world........we all get what we want. 
Oh.........and Aaron......Please no more vulgar E-mail.
Becky
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-15 18:30
I'm grateful to the existence of marching band for one personal reason only: When I was going through Naval Officer Candidate School back in 1979, I was able to 'parlay' my music skills (such as they were) into being allowed to play tenor sax in the marching band for our weekly Saturday parades, rather than having to march with my squadron carrying a rifle (which is considerably heavier and more uncomfortable than a tenor sax). Other than that, I think marching bands are worthless as musical entities.
Hope this thread ends soon. (Yes, I know, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"......)
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2002-04-15 23:44
Brad:
I don't think my mouthpiece bobs around in my mouth when I am sitting or standing in one place, but maybe I am wrong, I will have to investigate. I have never used the gliding step when marching, so I don't know if it helps, I will have to take your word for it.
I should have said that the reed is exposed to extreme temperatures effecting(or is it affecting?) their quality. Unless an orchestra is playing outside, the reed should not be as effected(affected), as much as with a Marching Band.
Also, I know that many people have stated that a plastic clarinet will sound as good as a wood clarinet, and that it depends on the mouthpiece and the player, but if that is so, why don't clarinet manufacturers make professional model plastic clarinets? Or do they?
Personally, I like watching marching bands, listening to them play, and playing the "music" that is played by marching bands. I just don't like marching, with or without my clarinet.
Lastly, one of the universities I attended required all Wind players with scholarships to play in the marching band and all marching band members to play in the concert bands in the Spring.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-04-16 02:29
We're poking at the horse now. Isn't it starting to stink now?
Maybe we should close the thread, Mark. This topic has been exhausted.
I motion, please someone second...
All in favor...
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Author: Aa
Date: 2002-04-16 05:33
Just for everybody's information, I am including the text of the e-mail I sent to the woman who doesn't speak proper English:
Damned Philistine.
Now, granted, the e-mail was not very nice. Sorry about that. However, instead of vulgar (which implies I talked about something entirely different in the e-mail), didn't you mean profane. Jeepers--the world is dangerous in some people's hands...
Also, in reply to the other feel-good bulletin board tack by Betsy, which was a copy-paste of my evil e-mail stating that Betsy probably had talent--I meant woodwinds are useless in marching bands. Ahhhhh! Sorry, everybody!
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Author: Aa
Date: 2002-04-16 05:56
Well, I guess when your arguments are kind of defunct, it's best to attack the person's character rather than anything else. Anyhow, simply because I have been a wimpy couch potatoe (got the wisdoms out today), and understand that it isn't a good idea to flame people publicly, and due to my wimpiness in not wanting to get flamed, I beg everyone to halt the thread replies, and apologize for attacking views privately (at least I didn't flame you in public, and use words I know the meaning of!), and direct anything negative, or, truly, anything they want, toward me--that's why I've got an e-mail address, which is backed by very powerful Alpha servers running NetBSD. Sheesh. Sorry, everyone, one more time. I just fear people that actually encourage something, which forces music majors to get up on a tower and insult music as little he can, not because he likes it, but because he can't teach the inner workings of music during concert season if he doesn't. I guess what my main aim was, was to encourage discussion of petitioning congressmen, and talking with school boards; maybe even a look at what should be in a musical curriculum, but instead we've got it divided between the help the unprivileged who can't afford good instruments (in my humble opinion, the money wasted on marching band ought to go to pay for those kid's instruments--it happens for lunch, and for some music is sustenance)), the learning impaired, or the kids who are too lazy to practice, and the other side of total dissipation. The idea of making band an athletic thingy, taught by a willing coach, and having nothing to do with concert band, never occurred to me--it sounds great. Currently, the high schools in my area grant an athletic credit to marchers, but that doesn't justify wasting their brains. Music is supposed to achieve a certain independence from the rest of the arcane curriculum (taught by often if not most of the time well or over-qualified educators who want to teach more; sigh) of American public schooling. The mentally-impaired (nothing against them) might actually find a march squad fun if it were separate from the music program. The key here is education, and more students are wasting the time they could be getting educated with than those who aren't, simply waiting for the pleasure of concert season. Please, do what you can, but don't kick a non-existent horse (the one who thinks marching band is great), conjured up by delusion; the real horse is still alive and kicking, ready to be ridden on to instrumental freedom (insert patriotic music here). Hee, hee, hee, hee, hee...
P. S. [deleted - if people don't want to give out their real names on the BBoard, you have no right to disclose them - Mark Charette, Webmaster], do I know you? Do you spy on me with my icepack depressed on the right side of my mouth? Are you cute? Oooooh; that's almost exciting.... I always go for disclosure of real names on the internetwork these days, though I didn't use to, as one ought to be responsible for actions taken online.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-16 06:06
Wow, Aaron, all I can say is, from songs I used to play ...
"Ramble on, the time is now, now's the time, sing my song ..."
Apologies to Jimmy Page and Robert Plant ...
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Author: Stéphane
Date: 2002-04-16 08:27
It is always fascinating for us, French people to see all that fuss around marching bands in the US. I won't add a lot to the debate as I never had a chance to play/witness a marching band in action (or maybe in numerous US movies?). But one sure thing though, French students don't have the chance to be as much exposed to music as US students can be in Colleges and Universities. Music still remains something quite elitist in France despite many tentatives from various bodies, public or private, to change that, and only a minuscule minority will have a chance to major in music or even get the slightest exposition to it during their scholarship. I understand I am slightly outside the debate: are marching bands about music or else, but at least they do exist and if you can't play an instrument, you are not part of it. You can discuss the quality of the music performed at marching bands, but if at least it gives you the opportunity to approach music, practice your instrument, and then go to the next step with concert band and orchestras and even chamber music, they might be worth something musicwise, or am I just dreaming?
We don't have marching bands in France to play at Football (I mean soccer here) games, but their equivalent could be Municipal Harmonies, whether marching or not. They usually perform at local events, festivals, comemorations, various ceremonies, and the sure thing is, their purpose is to play music and be attended to.
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Author: Brad
Date: 2002-04-17 07:33
Whether or not you agree with someone's opinions, it doesn't mean that you have to trash their ideas or disagree without giving it much thought. Some of us haven't actually been to college yet and we might not be as informed about the world of music majors or anything else yet. Personally, I do it because it's fun. I enjoy making music if it's on the football field or in a concert hall. I like to think that the quality of the music shouldn't destroy the love for it. However, I can also see why it's a bad thing for a lot of people. It's just my opinion...
PS: This bulletin board is on the web...like in writing...not in talking. So it's kinda like hard to tell someone's tone of voice. Sorry I can't "hear very well" enough to pick out sarcasm. :P:P:P:P:P
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The Clarinet Pages
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