 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-04-11 10:23
Hello Fellow Clarinetists!
Here is a thought I have often pondered over the years: why are the thumb 1-2-3-4-5-6 holes open on a clarinet? Not too many other woodwinds have open holes as the standard. If anyone has any thoughts on this I would like to hear them.
Yes,another aimless thought but where else can I express it and get so many great responses?!
Peace!
Brian
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-11 11:28
The clarinet, like oboe, bassoon, recorder, and bagpipes, has a narrowish bore, hence narrowish tone holes. Narrow tone holes are also used, especially on bassoon, because they contribute to a characteristic tone.
These small holes CAN be covered by the fingers so they are.
By comparison, the player does not have a hope of covering the large tone holes of the flute or sax. These tone holes are made large for the purposes of the tone characteristics of these instruments.
Mnay tone holes are covered simply because they are too remote from the fingers to be covered by them.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-04-11 11:57
Not ALL clarinets are like this. I've seen an instrument with covered holes, I think it was known as the Clinton/Boehm system. It always seemed a good idea to me. The biggest problem younger children have with the clarinet is keeping those holes covered with small hands and this system would get rid of that without having to resort to using an Eb or Lyons C.
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2002-04-11 13:12
Bassons have open holes for LH and 1st and 2nd fingers RH (3rd finger hole is quite far to cover with the finger). Some flutes have open holes also. Open holes allow to do some things you can't with closed ones, like glissandos, quarter tones... (but I've heard sax virtuosos than make glissandos with closed holes).
I've seen oboes with open holes, but the actual standard is closed ones (except for 3rd finger RH), why???
Open holes allow to make simplest keyworks, compare the keywork between a soprano clarinet, and a Bass clarinet.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-04-11 13:15
Brian, interesting thought. I always supposed that the holes were left uncovered so that the sound could project more easily. But there are many other tone holes that are covered, leading me to wonder that if all the clarinets tones holes were covered by pads, perhaps the instruments eveness or projection could be more easily controlled. What do the accousticians out there think???? Good question , and Good Clarineting!!! (BTW, Jez, wasn't Clinton known for his coverups)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-04-11 13:51
Intonation, intonation, intonation
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: RogerM
Date: 2002-04-11 13:57
the best flutes (my wife has a 5k haynes) are open hole
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-11 13:58
David, permit me to take issue with you on this --- it is quite possible to make covered-hole (plateau) clarinets with good intonation --- I really believe the answer is:
Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-11 15:14
About all I can add to Wm., HAT and Dave, is to use the word "venting", which is to me, using open holes, the least-obstructed method for the emission of our sounds. To see its effect, play your low C# and compare its sound [quite fuzzy on many cls] with that of the adjacent notes and gradually let it close. Also try a cl with the "articulated C#/G#" [if that pad rises sufficiently] for both better venting AND proper tone hole location. This is of course exactly the same "problem" which leads to poor sounding "pinch" Bbs, and their many solutions. The large reflector/resonance buttons on the large sax pads, and the beneficial high-rise of them, helps solve their venting problems. For interest, I have a Normandy plastic "plateau system" sop. cl [I believe they are still available from LeBlanc, for "thin-fingered" beginners. Easier fingering, but generally poorer sounding. Sorry for a lengthy post. Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-11 18:22
Don,
You make some good points, but consider the following: If one is keeping ones fingers tight in to the instrument (as is usually taught as the 'ideal') when the hole or ring is open, then the finger may be just as near the tonehole as a plateau key pad would be on a closed-hole instrument. Secondly, plateau instruments, if properly designed and regulated (a big "if", admittedly), have the pad heights set high enough that proper venting is accomplished --- stuffiness is NOT inevitable. Thirdly, I disagree that resonator pads on sax make much of a difference in sound -- the main reasons resonators exist are (IMHO) two: (1) they prevent the center of the pad from sagging, a legitimate purpose; and (2) marketeers have convinced quite a few players, perhaps including yourself, that resonators improve the sound in some way or another. Finally, I recently did some service on a Normandy plateau clarinet which played quite well, seemed to me to be as open-sounding and with as good an intonation as many traditional open-hole clarinets. One must be careful with making general statements derived from 'common sense' or 'intuition' or from just a few samples. And I've played dozens of bass clarinets over the years, all of which are plateau system out of necessity, and some have been stuffy and some have been wonderfully responsive --- no conclusions to be drawn there.
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2002-04-11 18:37
I believe the stuffy low C# is due to misplacement of the hole to avoid tenon, as you note for clarinets with articulated C#/G" key. That is to say, a narrower hole on an upper position gives the same pitch, but no the same quality. I can compare the response between my Bb Buffet and my A Rossi (1 body) with the whole a little more wider and placed a little more lower. No stuffyness on the low C# for the Rossi.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-11 18:48
Very well put, Dave, as they say,"all generalizations are false, including this one!!". I'm sure I went too far, BUT, with my experiences diff. from yours, [except on our fav., the bass cl] I tried to pass on my observations of a number of years, many "opinions" involved. TKS for the GG info, the mp is great. Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-11 20:11
Don, I apologize if it sounded like I was downplaying your experience, that certainly wasn't my intent, and I'm sure your postings are soundly based on a large body of observations. Keep on bass clarinetting!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-04-11 20:48
The function of the open holes is to add to one's options in terms of intonation, via shading and half covering holes, etc.
Obviously, if the basic design is the same, the intonation of a plateau and open-holed clarinet will be more or less the same. But the open hole clarinet will allow you far more subleties of micro-intonation, which is what playing in tune is all about.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-04-11 22:36
Wow! What great responses from all! You have all made some very good points. Thanks!
Peace!
Brian
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-12 03:16
David. I'm inclined to agree about the resonators, but there are some extremely committed believers! It is very like a religion.
RogerM wrote "the best flutes (my wife has a 5k haynes) are open hole". Not necessarily true. This is a belief system not unlike the saxophone resonator one. One person believes, and tells all else that it is a fact......
My $6k Muramatsu flute has plateau keys. Consider this:
1. The open-hole keys cause an even greater interuption to the bore of the instrument - step up to the pad and along, then another step up to the finger. This is acoustically undesirable.
2. Unless one has very soft fingers there is significant air escape along finger print grooves on open hole flutes unless one presses the keys excessively hard. I have proved this by having wet fingers and listening to bubbles while leak testing these flutes.
3. There are only 5 open holes on a flute. The open hole can only have a significant venting effect when the key is at the end of the effective air column. If open holes had a significant effect on vebnting (hence tone/volume) then players would notice that these 5 notes were better than all the rest. This is not the case.
AS far as I can see the only advantages of open holes is unusual effects like concurrent different tones, humouring the pitch of certain notes, and for better sliding from one note to the next.
The vast majority of players do not need or use these techniques.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-12 14:17
4. Open-hole G - especially if it is in conjunction with in-line tone holes (a totally useless phenomenon) - forces the left hand into an unergonomic position (unless the ring finger is longer than the middle finger!!!). Yet illogical fanatics talk themselves into believing this unergonic position has huge merit. Unbelievable!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-12 15:02
I would love to have the opportunity to design a clarinet from scratch, with complete freedom to make it ergonomically and acoustically sensible, without the restraint of "tradition". Followed by a redesign of saxophone r.h. side keys, palm keys, and r.h. ring finger (D#) key....... Gordon, wanna join this effort? Maybe we can get some sort of international cooperative grant....
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Author: William Hughes
Date: 2002-04-12 15:49
D.S. -
When I send you my Linton Alto for rehab, I'll be happy if you could relocate the thumb rest somewhere in the vicinity of the natural location of the opposable digit on the human right hand.
Regards,
William
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-12 15:56
William,
Aren't you aware that all Linton instruments were designed for possible export to Alpha Centauri, where the native players have thumbs which slide up and down in a groove? Naturally they don't fit HUMAN hands very well, but we're adaptable, right?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-12 17:05
TKS, Gordon, also Dave, Wm H and Dave for "opening" up the discussion to "ergo's", I put it in above as subject for later retrieval, perhaps Mark or someone will wish to make it a thread. I have frequently posted re: raising the usual located-too-low thumbrest, by inverting it or installing an adjustable so as to improve fingering of the rt hand ring finger on its tone hole AND the little finger's access to its E/B key. I applaud expanding the discussion to the UJ and LJ in-line [stacked] tone holes, and other worthwile topics [?] . Looking at my 1930 and [2] 1952 Selmer-Paris and my 1960's and 1970-80's LeBlanc pro models [UJ's], shows me that some consideration [except for the 1930 , a full Boehm]] was given to off-setting the non-ringed tone hole for the benefit of the [shorter] ring finger, which is prob. why I like them better than others. I dont have much experience with Buffets and Yamahas, others please help. Except for the lowest [ringed] LJ tone hole being larger [of necessity], it has little if any off-set, prob. due to its ring being on a common axle. ? Does anyone make use of this ring individually, perhaps for tuning?? Another long post !, just want to kick-off a learned discussion. Don
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-04-12 19:10
Any key mechanism adds weight to the action. A finger can always move more quickly and easily than a finger plus a key. In "easy" keys, I can play noticeably faster on the recorder, with no keys at all, than I can on clarinet.
A plateau mechanism clarinet would be mechanically much more complex than the "traditional" one. You need a separate rotating key for each hole, not to mention a separate rim and pad. Fingertips are flexible enough to cover tight even with the irregularities of fingerprints.
I don't think there's anything inherently superior about open holes, even on flutes. My Haynes (by the way, they now sell new for $8.5K) has open holes and a non-offset G, which makes my left hand uncomfortable. My flute technician (who trained at Haynes) put a plug in the G hole and set the key to open a bit wider. That's all it takes.
I'm told that most European players prefer closed holes (and an offset G). Jacques Zoon (former principal in the Concertgebouw, now principal in Boston), as far as I can tell from the photos, plays a (wood) flute with offset G and closed holes.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: RogerM
Date: 2002-04-12 23:10
Gordon (NZ) and Ken Shaw:
I actually agree with you that a flute would be better with closed holes but it would appear many professional U.S. flute players do not agree. Hence Haynes, Powell, etc. tend to use open holes on their better flutes to meet demand.
Ken---My wife's flute is the model SJD (thin wall). It was 5k in 1999. We had to return it to the factory to get a rod straightened shortly after we bought it (we would not let any in Tallahassee Fl--the home of the dimpled chad---work on it). They played it and said it was one of the better SJD's and played more like the 8K model. Luck of the draw. My wife is not a pro but loves her flute. She says it practically plays itself.
By the way, Haynes does make wooden flute. They told me they have a store of grenadilla wood and that it is over 50 years old.
I have seen notes on this bb that they made clarinets at one time. Have you ever played a Haynes clarinet
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-13 01:32
David that's a huge task. It would be easier to infiltrate an established manufacturing plant that has CNC machinery (are there any? - possibly Japan) and basically change the settings.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2002-04-14 17:10
RogerM, I am delighted to hear that "the best flutes are open hole". I have an open hole-silver flute marked "Vox" (stencil) in the 60's when Vox was moving into woodwind amplification. It is set up with a microphone pick-up on the head joint. I would be happy to sell this "best flute" at a good price, I'll even swap it for your junky closed hole 14k gold handmade, plateau, B foot Haines... you can pick the case you want to keep with it. I'll even throw in the genuine steel tuning/swap rod!
I'll even swap it for any R13 A clarinet you might have hanging around... I do prefer the full Boehm models however.
Terry
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