 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-04-11 05:33
Our band director seems to be adverse to holding seating auditions because she thinks it's unnecessary and time-consuming. This system hasn't worked wonderfully well over the past few years, and the Grade 10 and 11 musicians, in particular seem to be rather fed up about this. Here's why:
1. We don't have chair designations for most instruments--sometimes it's good to know your place in the section, but our band director thinks it would hurt our morale.
2. Sectioning is mostly based on seniority--your're in 12/13, you play 1st, regardless of how good you are. I'm not trying to be disparaging here, but some of the Grade 12 kids playing 1st aren't any better than our worst second. It's becoming rather irksome to know that I'll be seated behind people who I'm better than just because I'm younger and our band director doesn't want to audition us. There is, however, a Grade 10 who plays 1st, but he also happens to be the only one who takes private lessons. He is quite good for a Grade 10, but not necesarily leaps and bounds ahead of the other people in his grade that play 2nd. Since his seating is a substitute for seniority, the rest of us Grade 10s will probably be able to get solos ahead of him, regardless of our relative ability.
3. The flute and clarinet sections are the ONLY ones where we have a permanent soloist--every other 1st section plays solos on a rotating basis. Having principals doesn't make much sense considering that we have an otherwise loosely sectioned band.
4. The Grade 10/11 people won't improve if they keep playing 2nd and 3rd parts. None of them take lessons, or have much experience with the standard repetoire.
5. We have a seat challenge system in place, but no one uses it because it is considered a social faux pas to unseat someone; it would be much too obvious as to who challenged whom.
This is a big problem now because less people are graduating this year due to curriculum changes; that means lots of seniors next occupying the top chairs. What should we do about this? Ask for auditions?
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-04-11 05:50
We had a year when we did have auditions, but our director put first chair on first part, second chair on second part, third chair on third part, and then fourth chair on first part, and so on. At first, it was iritating to some, but we found it helped the overall sound of the ensemble. During the fall sememester, we didn't even have auditions, we used the seniority method. Although it's not all that fair to everyone, usually the band sounds better, because there will be strong people on every part instead of just first. But, if your teacher is using this method, the student in 10th should not be an exception, it should apply to all. Well, I hope you find a way to make more people happy.
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-04-11 05:58
Our band director assumes (correctly , for some part) that in general, the 12s are better then the 11s and so on; she's not really into "sprinkling" the best players on lower parts. Therefore, the 3rds can't even cover their part and all you ever hear from the clarinet section is the 1st part.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-04-11 12:38
It is as honorable, and as noble for the soul to play third clarinet as to play first. Music is about cooperating, not being jealous.
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Author: William
Date: 2002-04-11 13:43
The varying methodology used in sectional seating with regards to educational outcome, student motivation, ensemble performance and interpersonal relationships could provide someone with enough theoretical, psychological and practical subject matter to write their doctoral dissertation and win the Pulitzer Prize. In a "perfect band room", everyone would take their turn playing every part and be motivated to practice to absolute perfection to "be all that they can be." For a variety of reasons--lack of motivation, personal musical aptitude, interperonal relationships, instrumentation, etc, etc, etc--the "one-size fits-all" system of determining seating arrangements that will satisfy everyones musical needs and satisfy the educational goal of musical literacy for all, just does not seem to exist. Anyone for a PhD in Seating Arrangement and Educational Outcome?????? Good Writing!!!! (bottom line to Jacy--do the best that you can until the thesis comes out, and Good Clarineting!!!)
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Author: Danette
Date: 2002-04-11 13:48
My band director in high school did auditions (he tied it into exams). I think for the most part, it helped keep the older students on their toes. My freshman year, me and a few of my classmates were seated higher than a few upperclassman. It never really caused a morale problem, b/c our band director was widely admired and fair. That's not to say noone was ever angry an underclassman outscored them, but it usually convinced that player to work a little harder.
The only problem was the worst players (or less good?) were on 3rd parts, and as a result, we almost never heard them. (Sometimes when we did, we wish we hadn't!)
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Author: Man
Date: 2002-04-11 13:53
Grow up. Where you sit in a band is all bs anyway.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-04-11 16:54
"What should we do about this? Ask for auditions?"
Fair question.
What you should do ,Jacy, is play the music. That's the purpose of being in a musical group. Your director works hard to put together a good program and she deserves your full support, not a bunch of grumbling misfits. Where you sit is the least important consideration. All parts are necessary to make it sound good and the sooner you learn to co-operate and be supportive of one another the better you'll sound.
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-11 17:24
And why is it "bs"?
One of the prime reasons that band classes (music education?) in many programs in the U.S. lack credibility (yes) is that they lack a music educator doing a good job evaluating their student's performance/progress.
First you must have music educators that know about and have the ability (competence) to use a formal music curriculum. This practice has been virtually abandoned. Curriculum's sit on the shelves throughout American schools gathering dust. It's a "win the blue ribbon" world out there. March, march and march some more. It seems that entertainment is the main objective (to the exclusion of any formal use of the curriculum, this the entire first half of the school year. U.S. schools of course...not many schools in France are going to set the marching band out for the halftime of their version of "football") in band class in recent years, not music education.
Second you must have music educators that are prepared each and every day, to teach music. As I watch directors stand in front of their ensemble, I observe way to much "winging it". I often observe band directors that lack clear objectives when "teaching". This is in part, a result of the curriculum problem....and also the fact that few band directors use (some have never seen) a lesson plan....and fewer and fewer younger/new directors have the advantage of a true mentor. Career expectancy in Texas schools for band directors is revised downward often. I believe that on the TMEA site I recently read that between 5 and 6 years is the average career length in Texas public schools for a music educator.
Third....many band directors have made band class grade the auto 'A'. Basketweaving 101. If a kid shows up and doesn't make waves, count on the 'A'. Formal evaluation is often very casual (or doesn't exist) in many programs. Many directors fear that if they hold the student accountable (homework...i.e. practice for a "chairtest", "audition", "grade" or "tryout") that it will run kids off. I often hear directors say, "I don't have time to....", a real cop-out. Competitive evaluation, in the form of chair placement, is only one way to assess and/or motivate a music student. It is a valuable tool if used correctly. Let's face it, in the real world we all have to compete for a job...and this fact is true in many disciplines; not just music.
I would be interested to know about what sort of evaluation process the director of Jacy's band program uses when determining the progress of individual students. Jacy's observations are valid. I do know that a band can be very successful without chair auditions...but only if the students feel that their work is being fairly evaluated and that each student understands (objective and fair evaluation) how they are contributing (or not) to the ensemble.
The "love" of music is rarely enough for the masses......
F. Aten
* I do know some wonderful music educators....not all is bad. Just on the soapbox.
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Author: Jacy
Date: 2002-04-11 19:41
I think I left an important detail out: I'm in Grade 10 AND I was moved to 2nd, much like that other kid was moved to 1st.
If I thought I was being fairly evaluated, I wouldn't make a point of this. In Grade 9, when I played 3rd, I didn't mind at all because I knew that the band director was right in his assesment of my (lack of) skills. On the flip side, knowing that I'll have to play 2nd for another year for the sole reason that there'll be more upperclassmen than available 1st seats is something to make a point of.
Whether it seems to be the case or not, I'm in band because of my love for music, not for the satisfaction of knowing I'm better than others at something. At the same time, I think I've got a right to be a little bit fustrated that I'm not really getting a chance to prove my ability.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-11 20:13
Jacy,
Sure you you're getting a chance to prove your ability! You're getting to prove that you're the absolutely best 2nd there is!
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2002-04-11 20:20
During my 3rd year in college, I was moved from first part down to 3rd (sometimes 4th). This was not because of my ability, it was just a random placement. I took that opportunity to really work on tuning and my lower register. My tone has improved sooo much, and so has my intonation. During my 4th year, 1st semester, I played second, now I am playing bass. Although I do hope to have an opportunity at 1st next year (my final year) I do know that there are things to be learned by playing any part. Plus, 1st part is not always harder than 2nd. Higher doesn't necessarily mean harder. Good luck!
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-11 21:57
Ron,
You assume to much.
How do you know that Jacy's director works hard?
How do you know that this director is putting together a good program?
Do you think that all public school music programs are "good"?
What makes you think that Jacy is not co-operating?
Students asking reasonable questions shouldn't be considered a "bunch of grumbling misfits". Band isn't a cult....it's a class.
Where Jacy "sits" may be very important, to both Jacy and the band.
F. Aten
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-04-11 22:06
Jacy,
Mark's point should be well taken. You're in a situation that you have little control over. If you can find constructive ways to communicate with the teaching staff about these issues great.
If not, you'll have to live with the hand you're dealt, or walk.
Do your best to find a balance between serving the band and/or furthering your music education.
F. Aten
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2002-04-12 00:54
Our band director does not do seating auditions either. He passes out a folder full of parts, and whoever gets them gets them, and the not so great among us usually get the 1sts, and the balance is all messed up. After all, these are school band arrangements (Grade II-IV) and are usually scored so that the first is the harder, more fun part, and the 2nd and 3rd are almost always whole notes, and not much fun to play. However, in the Wind Ensemble I play in, I am not at all opposed to playing 2nd or 3rd, because they are still challenging and fun.
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Author: Cindy
Date: 2002-04-12 00:58
In our band, freshmen are not looked upon very highly at all. We are all basically amateurs who need those "better, more experienced upperclassmen" to hold us by the hand and tell us what to do. I felt (and still feel) that I am better than that, so when I was the only freshman entering our section and got placed absolutely last chair I was infuriated! But, after spending many nights yelling to my brother and friends about how evil and unjust the placement was, I realized something. Once you have the respect of your fellow section mates, it is a lot easier to show how good you actually are. Think about it. If you were to go up to your band director and say "I think I deserve to be a higher part because I am a lot better than you think" (Which I doubt you would ever do, but go with me) she would probably think you are just a cocky and conceited underclassman. But, if others in higher chairs in your section werer to go up and tell her how good you are and that you deserve to have a higher part, I'm sure she might look a little closer at the possibility. Well, I wish you luck in your quest to prove the eternal struggle of older is better wrong, and know I agree fully!
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Author: 'nifer
Date: 2002-04-12 02:13
One HS band I know has the "sprinkled" section, but the chairs are NOT permanant for 1st, 2nd, 3rd.. the parts rotate around, so the 3rd play 1st on one piece, the 2nd play 3rd, the 1st play 2nd.. etc.. and it rotates.. it seems to work well and the section may label internally, but everyone has a chance ("tutti solo for the 1st clarinets anyone?) I personally enjoy conducting that group because the seating seems to be more conducive to assistance from the director or from others in the section (who truly is the "principal")
'nifer
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Author: blake
Date: 2002-04-12 15:45
I've played under seniority, competitive weekly challenges, rotating parts..and have the following observations:
Its important to learn how to play solo, first, second and third parts - why? Each part tends to focus on different ranges of the intrument making you a better musician if you can work in all three registers comfortably... 2nd parts are notoriously harder because they go back and forth over the break - there parts arent always "heard" like a soloist part.. but dont play them and the piece sounds hollow. It also trains your ear to listen and blend with different parts of the band ie..if youre on first you tend to listen to the flutes/oboes for doubled parts.. if youre on second, you listen for the saxes and horns and trumpet parts and on third the low reeds and trombones for doubled parts.
Seniority system - yeah its not fair.. but neither is life... it teaches you how to "pay your dues"
challenges - very good training if you plan to be a professional musician so that you get used to a competitive edge and audtion process and playing under pressure...doo doo for morale though. If your band director isnt a clarinetist...are you sure the best clarinet player gets #1? what if you have a bad day and auditions are once a year?
rotating parts - the current system I play under. one piece I'll be on Effer, another 3rd, another first etc.. benenfit - i'm playing parts on pieces i never knew and have a greater appreciation for 3rd and 2nd parts. Higher doesnt always equal tougher. More exposed perhaps... When you get up to grade 5 and 6 music, all the parts are challenging for clarinets.
My advice? learn to be the best clarinetist you can be on all the parts - not just solo. Youre part of the "clarinet section" in a band... work on being a section player, not a soloist.. your private lessons and solo and duet work are for that. A section leader means learning how to help all the players. More often than not the clarinet section is the limiting factor in a band as to the difficulty of the music that can be played.... if the 3rds suck.. the whole band will.
Blake
Arlington, VA
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-04-12 19:25
Ron,
You assume to much.
>>> probably
How do you know that Jacy's director works hard?
>>> okay. *most* teachers are overworked and undercompensated
How do you know that this director is putting together a good program?
>>> benefit of the doubt. whatever it is, it's better than no program
Do you think that all public school music programs are "good"?
>>> no. but any program is better than no program
What makes you think that Jacy is not co-operating?
>>> attitude
Students asking reasonable questions shouldn't be considered a "bunch of grumbling misfits". Band isn't a cult....it's a class.
>>> some bands are borderline cults.
Where Jacy "sits" may be very important, to both Jacy and the band.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-04-12 19:32
Forest -
You wrote:
Ron,
You assume to much.
>>> probably
How do you know that Jacy's director works hard?
>>> okay. *most* teachers are overworked and undercompensated
How do you know that this director is putting together a good program?
>>> benefit of the doubt. whatever it is, it's better than no program
Do you think that all public school music programs are "good"?
>>> no. but any program is better than no program
What makes you think that Jacy is not co-operating?
>>> attitude
Students asking reasonable questions shouldn't be considered a "bunch of grumbling misfits". Band isn't a cult....it's a class.
>>> been there. most bands are borderline cults.
Where Jacy "sits" may be very important, to both Jacy and the band.
>>> i couldn't agree with you more, Forest
G'day
ron b
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