 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-04-10 19:15
I've just recently met a player who is the principal clarinet with one of the main British orchestras though he was born in France and studied in the United States. Confusing 'til I heard him play and realised he sounded like a good old English school player.
Anyway..... he told me a remarkable story about one of his teachers at the Juilliard School.
Charles Neidich was playing a concerto somewhere and during the overture was whiling away his time chatting with my new friend. When someone came to warn him that it was nearly his turn ("5 minutes Mr. Neidich") he broke the seal off a brand-new box of reeds, took one out, moistened it in his mouth, stuck it on and walked out to play, which he did immaculately.
Here's a different approach to most of us!
I'm reminded of something my old teacher, who was obsessed with golf, used to say. "You've got to learn to play the ball from where it lies"
May you all find a good reed (without having to look too long!)
jez
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-10 19:24
Please define, "like a good old English school player." and why it is "confusing" and you feel the need to define this person's origin?
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-10 19:48
No, no conspiracy. I don't know what is the definition of "good old English school player" say verses a good old Scandanavian or Argentinian. What is the difference?
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-04-10 20:04
Brandywine (Pennsylvania) school of watercolor...
French school of fine cuisine...
Prairie school of architecture....
English school of music....
Kansas City school of jazz....
Like jazz, you know it when you hear it.
Mitch
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-04-10 20:08
Betsy,
The old English school of clarinet playing, I think, is epitomised by players like Brymer, de Peyer, Thurston, Kell, Fell, Denman and more recently McCaw, Whittaker, Banks, Pay, etc. I imagine I can detect a distinct difference in style from players of other nationalities, notably the German/Austrian school and the old French school. I presume that the style of American players, befitting the country's origins, is a broad mix of European and other influences, but not many U.S. players are well known over here so I can't really comment.
The use of the word 'confusing' was merely a flippant comment for which I apologise, assuring you that no racial slur was intended. It merely seems different, to me, that this person is, certainly, the only non-British principal clarinet in a full-time job in this country and, as far as I know, the only one to have studied in the U.S. although I may be quite wrong about that. I only felt the need to define this person's origins as a precusor to, what I thought, was an otherwise interesting story, which, I hope, this thread can return to.
Apologies for any offence.
jez
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-10 21:04
No problem, jez, even though we both use the same words, it is not the same language. When anyone leaves messages on a bulletin board it is important to be a clear to understand as possible.
I once had a bulb book from Holland with translations into English and American. The American translation used much shorter words and sentence structures. Ach von himmel!
But back to the reed matter at hand. I've had great luck with right of the box Zondas. A friend (hi Allen C.!) got me hooked on them.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-04-10 21:06
School, schmool! I want a box of reeds just like that one. In fact, I'll take five.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-04-10 21:06
Betsy, think in terms of different mouthpiece lays, styles different (possibly) bores on their clarinets different, rosewoods vs grenadilla, Rossi's vs R-13. It "aint" 'English as she should be spoke" but totally diffferent styles of playing/English/French/German/ or even some liking Reggie Kell and some Acker Bilk and Kenny G? Got it?
Bob A
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-04-10 21:42
Betsy,
Thanks, in future I'll try to be a clear a I can.
jez
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Author: William
Date: 2002-04-10 21:47
William Stubbins, former legendry clarinet teacher at the University of Michigan, uses to tell (scream at, I am told) his students to, "Play the reed!! Don't let the reed play you." I heard Charles Neidich play for a local college clinic in which he exhibited some minor concern in his reeds performance. The reed which he began playing with was not working quite up to his expectations so, instead of changing reeds, he simply switched mouthpieces--from the one with the red dot to the one with the blue--explaining that he had had the two mpcs custom made to accomodate varying stregths of reeds, but yet "play the same." He said something to the effect, "There, that's it!!" after the change--but to us in the audience, he sounded the same. He also stressed the importance of an "iron" embouchure and having the endurance to play for hours without tiring. He did definately seem to be in control of his reed, and not the reed in control of him. As chance favors the prepared mind, reeds favor the "prepared" embouchure. The stronger your "chops" become, the less hassle you will have with reeds. Good Clarineting!!!!!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-04-10 22:13
And generally, players favor the "prepared" reed! A well broken-in reed, adjusted with knife and/or sandpaper and/or reed rush, will almost always provide better, more reliable service and a much longer life than one pulled 'fresh out of the box' and played immediately ----- despite the Neidich anecdote related above by jez.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2002-04-10 22:21
William said "William Stubbins, former legendry clarinet teacher at the University of Michigan, uses to tell (scream at, I am told) his students to, "Play the reed!! Don't let the reed play you."
Just for the record, in the four years that I studied with Mr. Stubbins, I never heard that line. What's more, he never ever raised his voice.
Perhaps he had mellowed by the time I studied with him -- but, from my experiences, this reference seems way out of character.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-04-10 22:53
Anyone who has "played" solo to an audience whether it's clarinet,any instrument, comedy or as a speaker knows he has to be prepared. Perhaps the seal only appeared to have been unbroken. Guess I just don't believe all the anecdotes I hear. No offense Jez.
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-04-10 23:13
Jez,
Don't sweat it guy! I and probably many others read your post and enjoyed it without trying to analyze it.
I have learned, in the short time I have been actively been participating in this forum, that not everyone speaks the same. We are all from different parts of the world and if someone makes a remark the offends someone simply because they are from a different area and don't phrase words the same then just let it slide! Why we must always try to be politically,socially,racially,religiously and sexually correct ALL OF THE TIME? In the real world people don't speak completely properly all the time do they?
C'mon people...lighten up and have fun! Jez was only trying to share a story is all!
Thank you for letting me rant!
Peace!
Brian
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2002-04-10 23:26
I believe Jez's story. My teacher who studied with Charlie Neidich does the exact same thing - he'll pull a new reed out of the box and start playing like it's the holy grail of reeds. Of course he does this at my lessons, and I kind of doubt he does that for concerts since I've seen the way he organizes his reeds in his case.
But there's a point to be made with Jez's story. Until somewhat recently, I had been obsessive about finding the perfect reed. But lately (and really unintentionally) I've been adjusting my embochure, tongue and throat to the reed instead of vice versa. I don't know if this is wrong, but it seems to be working for me. And as a result I'm spending more of my practice sessions on playing versus trying to find and/or create the perfect reed.
Perhaps Charlie Neidich is so supremely confident in his talent (and deservedly so!) that he knows he can overcome most of the common shortcomings in reeds and therefore doesn't fear walking out to perform with a brand new reed.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-04-11 00:09
It's all psych to me. I sounded great on new reeds until someone told me I needed to break them in. After that I sounded terrible, and I still haven't recovered.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2002-04-11 05:40
For the ones like me that are still learning, there is some moral in the story: You will sound infinitely better next year, no matter if you change the setup or not.
On the other hand it is fun and also rewarding to try out different reed brands, strenghts, mouthpieces and clarinets, isn't it? Only it should not get too distracting.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-04-11 08:51
The story is great, and makes the point that supreme technical skill, and confidence in what one is doing does make it possible to achieve such wonders. But beware the cavalier player who tries to emulate it without that level of genius. Pride before the fall!
CN's skill may have been angled firmly in the direction of being able to play on anything in any conditions etc.. The stuff about "iron embouchure" suggests that. Nonetheless, top players have to have this ability, because even a well broken in reed can go wrong on the night. Brymer says about recitals with bad reeds: "it can be made to give quite musical results in the emergency now to hand, and music is the whole reason for a recital. Happily, not even a skilled clarinettist usually knows whether his colleague is using a good or mediocre reed. A bad one, yes. But by the audience, even a bad reed can be undetected."
By contrast I once attended a master class given by Colin Bradbury in which the student was making a very poor sound. Bradbury borrowed the clarinet to demonstrate a passage and made just the same very poor sound. Of course, he borrowed the whole set up, not just the reed, but he did comment that he did not like that reed!
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2002-04-11 21:40
That iron embouchure idea makes me really nervous. Keep it up, and you increase your chances of developing serious embouchure injuries, like the one that had me out of commission for over a year.
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-12 13:06
Oh Please! In this age, where people are much more global and less provincal, I was asking a valid question. What does heritage/tutorial environment have to do with playing style?
If anyone is guilty of trying to read more into a simple question, it is those people who thought I was trying to pick a fight.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-12 13:17
Betsy wrote:
>
> Oh Please! In this age, where people are much more global
> and less provincal, I was asking a valid question. What does
> heritage/tutorial environment have to do with playing style?
Eh? The post specifically talked about an "British school", which of couse implies heritage and pegagogy.
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Author: Betsy
Date: 2002-04-12 14:19
no, he specifically said "good old English school player," and remarked it was "confusing". I asked a simple quesiton you jumped on the bandwagon of not reading the his post clearly.
Who says it US teachers couldn't have been from England? This does happen. I've worked in studios with Korean, German and Hungarian professors. Guess where they were? In a small University in the Shenandoah Valley. So why could I not have been confused by his posting?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-12 15:01
Not so very long ago there were considered to be at least 3 "schools" or styles of playing - German, French, and English. Many of the top players from Europe came to the US and taught here.
As recordings caught on and the sounds of the different regions were played outside their region, a general "amalgamation" of the different styles became the "American" school.
Some areas (Germany, France) hold on to what they think are regional styles very tightly. Read the latest issue of "The Clarinet" to learn about a German point of view.
An article which may elucidate this topic much better is http://www.ocr.sneezy.org/articles/leeson4.html ... whether you agree with Dan Leeson or not.
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Author: donald nicholls
Date: 2002-04-13 23:17
these differences can be subtle but still significant
- i played 2nd clarinet in a professional symphony with an english trained player, didn't ever like what i heard and found my "instinct" musically to be somewhat different, we sorted it out and things went ok (the Julliard trained musical director of the orch was satisfied, anyway) but the differences were there- sound, phrasing, embrochure etc... as the 2nd clarinet it was my responsibility to ensure it wasn't a problem.
- i played 2nd clarinet to a guy who learnt in the US, from a teacher who had had the same teachers as both of my teachers (i know that sounds a bit clumsy, sorry) and it was much much much easier and much more fun to play with him- our "instincts" were in sync and i actually liked what i heard when he did solos, which made it much more satisfying for me. Unfortunately we were both on limited contracts so this section couldn't be permanent... a real pity as i loved playing with Mark!
These differences can be reflected in the playing of other instruments too- string players in the APO sometimes argue about articulations, and the english trained players often seem to want shorter articulations in Classical music.....
In my experience- English players seem to do as little as possible to their reeds, i am told this is for time reasons- they are often very busy and would rather pay for more reeds (and select the good ones) than spend time fixing up the "almost good" or mediocre ones. Neidichs attitude to this problem seems to be similar, on this ocaision at least. I don't think he's typical of professional players in the US..... in this and other ways. He DOES, however, GET GIGS
in fact, he gets BETTER GIGS than me, so good on him i say!
only, you MAY sound ok by picking a reed at random out of a box, but i'd say you would have a better chance of sounding your best if you tried them all out and picked the best one.....
(i'd guess that he had already done that, and had a box filled with the best ones of many other boxes....)
keep playing the good tunes
nzdonald
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Author: David Dow/Symphony nb
Date: 2002-04-24 02:30
Certainly far less differences in schools today than 20 years ago when I begain...there is much to admire in all our differences...sadly we tend to forget that the player who thinks they sound one way may in the hall sound totally different than onstage. Acoustics and tone are very nuanced, I am not frustrated by reeds ever..slowly breaking them in I tend to to get 90 percent of all my reeds to work. Another by-product of modern living is to rush a reed in, rush our development, rush to get a better reed. I realize that individuality is what makes music so good, reeds are like people........ and yes I have done whole concerts on new reeds.
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