 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2002-03-27 01:27
Alright...If I really sat and thought about it, I could probably figure it out, BUT....
On bigger bore clarinets, do you have to push more air through? I have an R-13 which I believe is a .575 bore diameter. I see some LeBlanc and Selmer models with bores of .584 and .590, and am wondering if it means more air is needed.....and possibly larger tip openings on the MPC. I'd really like to know. Thanks....
John
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Author: jbuter
Date: 2002-03-27 01:40
Maybe, but since there is less resistance, it really comes out a "wash". I feel like I can't get rid of air fast enough when playing an R13 after playing Selmers for so long. Just my opinion there may be others to disagree. I do use a more open mouthpiece and a little softer reed (V-12 3.5 or Superial DC 3.5). I know some who even play on softer reeds like a 2.5.
jbutler
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Author: Mike Harrelson
Date: 2002-03-27 03:35
There is a school of thought that you are not pushing much air throught the clarinet. There is already air in it, it is not a vacuum. Your reed and mouthpiece sets the air already inside the instrument into vibration. The fingers open or close holes to make the air column longer or shorter. If that is true, a larger or smaller bore should not require extra effort. You are not filling up the horn with more air, it already has more air due to a larger bore.
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-03-27 12:52
Taking Mike's post a bit further.... To rattle the column of air, you need only blow enough air to set the reed in motion. It stands to reason that a smaller tip opening might take less air than a larger tip opening. BUT.... the smaller the tip, the harder the reed, and visa-versa - probably a wash when considering force/volume. I find on tenor and bari sax.... the bari with a smaller tipped mpc. than the tenor, requires a similar volume of air than the tenor with a larger tipped mpc. even though there is a substantial increase in volume.
With a lungful of air, I can blow a steady note for about the same length of time on each. I'm evaluating a couple of clarinets now, from .575 to .590 and feel only a slight difference from one to the other, but at different places in the range on each. Surprisingly, I'm finding a smaller bore intermediate model 'easier' to blow than the larger bore 'pro' models - but it has much less 'character' in tone quality. (another trade-off)
Mitch
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2002-03-27 12:56
As an engineer that has worked with fluid mechanics, I think I can provide some insight.
The purpose of blowing into a clarinet is not to cause the air to flow through the clarinet, but to flow past the reed, causing it to vibrate. How this works is another discussion. Thus, the flow rate required to make a sound is primarily a function of the reed and mouthpiece. The instrument itself is used to control the rate of vibration.
That being said, by blowing through the instrument, you are causing air to flow through it and there will be a resistance. This resistance will <i>decrease</i> as the bore gets larger because you are using about the same amount of air flow for the same note using the same reed and mouthpiece. To be more specific, the resistance decreases with the fourth power of diameter and increases proportionally to length. This implies that putting air through a bass clarinet, even though it is twice as long, requires but a fraction of the effort as putting it through a soprano because of its larger diameter. A contrabass requires even less effort.
In addition, the resistance of the instrument, I would guess, is much smaller than that of the opening between the reed and mouthpiece. If the instrument itself provided a significant resistance, you would need about three times as much effort to play your low E as you would to play open G because the instrument is effectively about three times longer (I'm estimating) for the lower note.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-03-27 14:21
Don..thanks for your excellent explanation. Again, things are not always as one would expect.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2002-03-27 23:23
Jeez Don! So blowing a Sousaphone shouldn't be any more difficult...and maybe easier than a trumpet!!! I'm never getting an Ab sopranino by LeBlanc....I'm headed toward doubly low BBb multi E Contra-Contra triple Bass Bassoon. Boy will the neighbors be impressed!
But seriously...a Boosey 10-10 shouldn't require any more "push" of air than a Selmer Recital with it's .563 bore? Depending on the mouthpiece? Interesting. Thanks.....
John
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-03-27 23:26
Dear Don and John,
There are really no stupid questions because Don's answer is a beautiful, educational answer to a rather complex physics question which you posed. I am constantly amazed and impressed with both the technical and experienced-based answers written by the BB community. - Thanks
The Doctor
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Author: Kirk
Date: 2002-03-28 00:09
Don,
That makes a lot of sense...I never really thought of it like that. Interesting !!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-03-28 14:48
Don, I agree with the fluid dynamics, but the actual flow through the instrument is so small that the resistance would be negligible for the sort of diameter in these instrumnets.
To illustrate this, blow air - at normal playing speed - through a clarinet WITHOUT the reed. Resistance cannot be perceived.
Your statement "...the resistance of the instrument, I would guess, is much smaller than that of the opening between the reed and mouthpiece" is an understatement of such magnitude that it makes your penultimate paragraph - so well put - irrelevant.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2002-03-29 00:03
John G,
The larger brass cup instruments are easier to produce a sound, ie. I find it easier to get a sound out of a trombone than I do a trumpet. The trumpet is harder to control, but playing the trombone with a good sound requires more breaths. I play both in my teaching, as well as the ww's. I'm not a fluid engineer, but speak from experience.
jbutler
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-03-29 01:54
Speaking as one who plays tuba about as much as clarinet, French Horn as well, and started on trumpet (My, I jump around!), I will add my 2¢. I find it easist to produce a sound on instruments with the range of a trombone. Tuba requires a bit of air, while trumpet air has to be VERY focused. French Horn, however, is an entirely different matter because you have the worst of both worlds. You have a small mouthpeice (focused air and more precision) AND a mile of tubing (more resistance), and yet it's not that difficult get a note out of it. It's playing with good tone that's hard!!
Take it for what it's worth!!
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