 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Mitchell
Date: 2002-03-21 19:57
Hi
I am wondering if anyone out there has had a bad experience with their Concertos or Opuses blowing out after six or seven years. My concertos used to play beautifully (in tune, even response, etc.). Now they are terrible; my wife says I sound like I'm playing a toy. Every clarinet, I mean EVERY clarinet plays better than my piece of junk Concerto.
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-03-21 21:27
Trade you even-steven for a new Noblet 45 I'm thinking of buying.....
"blown out"?? I've heard of the term... I can't believe wood moves to such an extent that the bore becomes so corrupted.....?
Mitch
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-03-21 21:42
Dear David,
Sounds like you are going to start a bidding war from those that want to take "blown out" instruments off your hands for pennies. To answer your question -- somewhat -- recent posts and those observations from truely talented professionals (I am not one of them) indicate a situation, not to the extent that you describe the changes, where there is a degradation or at least a change in some instruments over time, with a lot of use.
All of this has tweaked my interest and I have developed procedures and reagents (not for sale or commercial application) involving a computer controlled chamber which regulates and monitors relative humidity, and reagent (a chemist's term for chemical formulations) additions to an instrument. My friends call it the Lazarus chamber. I believe (although the statistical power is not yet met) that I can "turn around" some bad changes in a horn to the good - sure sounds like something too good to be true for most readers I am sure.
This brings up the point though that wood that has not been aged for long enough or under the proper conditions (of some intrinsic properties of the particular pieces of wood used) may change dimensionally upon further aging or environmental conditions (e.g. changes in the symmetry of the tone holes). Some of these changes are not reversible but if one could bring an instrument back to an optimal balance which was more in line with the original configuration (i.e. where the instrument contained more or less moisture and a different balance of moisture to oil content in the wood) then in many cases (my sample size is 5 to date - 4 positive, one no change) the owner felt that the qualities that went askew were now OK (e.g. tone and intonation).
This Lazarus Effect may belong in the Journal of Non-reproducible Results or in a circus side show, but my hope is that it may form the basis for some practical applications in the use and care of woodwind instruments in the future - and dry up the market for "blown out" instruments.
The Doctor
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-21 22:27
Why are you including Opuses in this equation - do you have an Opus too, which is giving you grief?
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Author: Brian
Date: 2002-03-21 23:02
diz wrote:
"Why are you including Opuses in this equation..."
Couldn't we say "Opi"?
Just kidding!!!
Brian
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Author: William
Date: 2002-03-22 04:28
Take your clarinet to an accoustician--like the Brannans, in Evanston, IL--and have the upper bore of your upper joint checked to see if it has changed. Also, your barrel may have changed. The bores can be returned to their original dimensions by a knowledgable repairperson. Tom Ridenour (LeBlanc's former chief clarinet designer of the Opus/Concerto models) checked mine after two years of playing and found them to be ok, but indicated that it is a common problem with wood clarinets that should frequently be checked for and corrected if necessary. Good Clarineting.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-22 04:41
Brian wrote:
>
> diz wrote:
>
> "Why are you including Opuses in this equation..."
>
> Couldn't we say "Opi"?
No, we'd say "Opera".
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-03-22 06:44
An R13 made in 1971 but not sold until I bought it in 1994 is still a wonderful clarinet but the general pitch has risen slightly in the last 7 years. Originally, it seemed to need a 64mm barrel and now a 67mm Moennig barrel works fine in the same environment and playing with the same people as at first. I suspect a slight shrinkage of the wood.
Have you checked your mouthpiece(s) for warpage or contamination? One could ask a friend who is a good player to evaluate them. It is very unlikely that they are "blown out". My 1912 and 1921 Buffets still play great. Good luck!
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-03-22 09:37
There has been a good deal of debate re the supposed "blow out" phenomenon on this board in the past. I can imagine it might affect "new" instruments (but am certainly not convinced). It does not apply to my c. 1910 Martels. I am inclined to side with those who do not think there is any such thing. But tone holes in the upper joint can become occluded by gunk and I can well imagine that changes tone throughout the instrument as it changes the profile of the "undercut". It will also make the relevant notes sound dull, windy, and flat. So it is worth a technician looking at this with a view to cleaning them perhaps. That could restore the instrument to former glory.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-03-22 14:05
A multi-million-dollar U.S. Government study has concluded that clarinets of all brands BLOW OUT after the following time periods (from date of manufacture) have elapsed:
Wood clarinets: 7 years, 3 months
Hard-rubber clarinets: 75 years, 6 months
Plastic clarinets: Immediately (come from factory 'blown out')
Please discard your blown-out clarinet as soon as possible and buy a new one before you reach the above expiration dates. Thank you.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-03-22 14:23
Vunderbahr, Dave, where was it published? I'd like to hang it next to my music entitled "Resting" [no notes, all rests!] . Don
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-03-22 16:08
David -
Many people who do repairs have complained here and on the Klarinet board about design problems with the Leblanc Opus and Concerto -- specifically, that the pads are undersized in diameter and barely seal on the rims. Any pad wear or opening of the wood grain around the rims could cause major problems.
At the least, you should take your Concerto to a top repair shop (such as the Brannens) that will seal the wood grain and install new pads that are seated perfectly. They can also check the bore to make sure it hasn't changed. Barrels in particular often need adjustment. It's a lot cheaper than buying a new instrument.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: James
Date: 2002-03-22 17:16
To be honest I'm hearing a lot of extra junk that could only confuse David. Yes Leblanc and all clarinets blow out or ware in, some people like this some people don't. To those who say, "bring it to brannen", The brannens won't touch the inside of your clarinet, they only work on the outside. I know they will make your clarinet mechanically perferct, but aquoustical and intonation problems are on the inside. Here is what you can do to try to fix it before you abandon ship. The clarinet has some years on it and probably needs to be reemed. They do this at leblanc, and it will make a great improvement. Replace your barrel, thats where the sound come from and its the first part of the clarinet to get "blown out".
As for the questions on why to mention to opus as well? Becuase they are both acousically the SAME!!!!!!!!!! There is nothing different on the inside of the bore. The only things different about the opus is that is comes standard with Silver Keys, Joint rings, Resonators on the lower joint and that nice little Eb key we all love and adore. Just wanted to clear that little tid bit up. Anyhow I hope you get yoru problem fixed, trust me if you do exactly as to what i just said your clarinet will play much better.
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Author: david mitchell
Date: 2002-03-22 18:52
I include the opus simply because it is practically the same instrument
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Author: david mitchell
Date: 2002-03-22 21:16
Allow me to fill in a few blanks with this story. First of all, thanks for the many replies. The concertos(A&Bb) are about seven years old. They have been serviced by the Brannens many times. I have an assortment of barrels that of course all play differently, but the 'blown out' quallities still persist. I have played many mouthpieces and have had many different professionals try the horns-same conclusion. There is no gunk in the tone holes. There is a slight improvement when I try different bells.
The thing I am wondering about is whether there is something screwy with these crappy Leblancs!!!!!!! When I bought them, everybody was buying them at a certain college in chicago under the influence of a certain teacher.(He did not require this in any way). I have begun to notice at auditions that there is not a Leblanc in sight!! Has anyone won an audtion on a Leblanc? Does anyone really play one in an orchestra besides that certain clarinettist in chicago?
When I play other people's Buffets it seems all my problems vanish---even really old junky ones. I even have an old selmer(says something like 'centered tone' on it) with half the keys off that sounds better.
Is there really such a thing as a rubber clarinet?
I guess what I am really after is not a solution but rather if anyone else who PLAYS a leblanc has experienced the same thing. I know that a clarinet shouldn't be screwy after such a short period of time.
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Author: Mitch A
Date: 2002-03-23 00:50
I'd still like to hear about how a 'blown out' clarinet sounds. Sharp at the bottom, dull at the top....?
My teacher has played a dozen or so great and not so great clarinets over 55 years with many different bands/pits/B'way etc., and says a little fine tuning/cleaning is about all most clarinets need - UNLESS - the wood warps so badly over time that it cracks.
So, if it's dimensional changes we're calling 'blown out' - what does it change that is so far different that a new mpc/reed/barrel can't overcome, yet still be so round inside that reaming won't fix?
Mitch
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-23 02:38
There is an interesting clue here, and it bears consideration. David, you say both your Clarinets have this bizarre and awful sound: one B-flat, the other A. Unless you have played the two clarinets for quite equal periods of time, which would be very curious, the playing of the instruments could hardly be the cause of any problem I can imagine. However, presuming you take them to the same places in a double case (I'll bet you do), they have been exposed to the same environments over the years, other than during their playing times. So the problem sounds like one of undesirable environmental exposure to me.
The first thing that pops into my mind is a need for properly treating the wood to attempt a restoration of its volume. Were I you, I would carefully consider The Doctor's recommendations in this respect. Personally, I would want to know whether the tenon rings or bell rings have become loose at any time in the past and been "refitted." This, to me, is a dead-on indication of moisture loss, which in my opinion should be corrected by replacement with an appropriate non-volatile oil. I would do what I think is best if the instruments were my own, but as they are not, I yield to The Doctor's superior professional knowledge and experience in this area.
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-23 05:42
James wrote:
>
> To be honest I'm hearing a lot of extra junk that could
> only confuse David. Yes Leblanc and all clarinets blow out or
> ware in, some people like this some people don't.
I always love pronouncements such as this from young people ...
If cyso means what I think it does ...
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Author: Larry Combs
Date: 2002-03-24 02:15
I have played the Leblanc Opus(quite similar to the Leblanc Concerto) for many years now. I played Buffet R13 and Prestige for many years before that and in the meantime try every possible new product when it becomes available.I feel strongly that we clarinetists are privledged to live and work at a time in which a number of choices of instruments exist. This has not always been the case.
My advice to David Mitchell is to invest in instuments which are comfortable to him. Clarinets do not last forever and thier value certainly does not appreciate over time.The lack of acceptange of the Leblanc Opus/Concerto is a mystery to me as I feel that these instruments are clearly superior to any others available with regard to tone quality, eveness, intonation,response, and projection.
When Mr. Mitchell was my student a few years ago I recall that he produced a wonderfully vibrant, ringing tone with terrific articulation. What can have happened between then and now is anybody's guess.
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Author: ken
Date: 2002-03-24 22:15
I've never played on a Concerto but I do own/play a 6-year Opus that's essentially the same instrument (plus bells and whistles). I play allot, between gigs and shedding up to 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year and 180+ days road time. Strictly from a mechanical, maintenance up-keep and durability standpoint the horn is pretty finicky ... annual shop costs run VERY high. Excluding normal cork and pad wear, keys and cups, posts and rods routinely get out of alignment, spring tension shifts or snap, screws unthread themselves and about once a week I get an annoying case of clicky keys in the lower left/right clusters. If you own an older Saab or Jag you love and can't bear to part with, well, you get the picture.
<;-)
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Author: Kim Hagen
Date: 2002-05-24 21:51
I've had a persistent clicky key problem with my 7(??) year old Concerto very nearly since it was new; unfortunately no one in the last five years has been able to replicate the clever fix first implemented to fix the problem. It's also grown much more prone to mechanical misalignment with time. Beyond that, it's hard to judge longetivity as I've dragged the instrument through a nightmarish environmental gauntlet (MN->TX->CA->NM, and boy does it hate the desert). I will verify that it seems more mechanically finicky than what others deal with, but generally tonally worth it for me personally.
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