 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2002-03-07 11:54
I don't know much about the subject, but I have heard the stories about Buffet being in financial difficulty etc etc. I was wondering if this will or has effected the quality of the instruments currently being produced. This question is mainly for those who either know more details about the Buffet situation, or those who are currently in the market for a new instrument and have tested new Buffets.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-03-07 13:58
Funny you should ask. I spent the day yesterday play-testing a load of new Buffets at my friend's dealership and 100% of the new Festivals came in with loose tenon rings and horrible adjustments. That's unusual. They're all in the repair shop right now getting ready to put out on the shelf. The R-13s are due in soon and I'll let you know how they are when I've played them.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-07 15:55
Brenda, that sounds almost frightening. When I think of loose tenon rings, I think of dried out. It makes me wonder if the humidity around these instruments might have been extraordinarily low since they were built. Could explain some lousy adjustments, too.
By the way, I was told that Buffet forbids oiling their instruments during the warranty period. Is this true? Sounds nuts to me.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-07 16:09
We've been down this oily road far too many times...
However, the one fact still remains that Buffet (and others) do not sell to the general public the original oil used to impregnate their instruments.
Nor will they disclose the "formula" that they use.
Whether one wants to oil or not, wouldn't you want the type that your instrument maker feels is best for the wood?
Others, like the "Doc" do know it's composition, but are bound ethically not to reveal it (as he stated in a past thread). Totally understandable.
Remember those snake oil salesmen in the old Wild West? They never left...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-03-07 16:30
Brenda -
Francois Kloc needs to know about this. Were the instruments by chance directly imported without "Platinum Service" that usually takes care of such problems?
More generally, everyone I've talked to says there's been a significant increase in the quality of Buffets made in the last few years. I've played perhaps 20 new Buffets of all models over the last couple of years. While there was certainly variation, there were no real dogs, and the overall quality was very good.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-03-07 16:35
Oh yes -- I doubt that the loose rings are due to lack of oil. It's low humidity. The same is true for binding keys. I've had to go to extreme measures during this extremely dry and warm winter, including putting damp paper towels in my cases.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-07 21:00
Ken, my question about oiling a new Buffet (which has had no answer yet) was separate and apart from my comment that it sounded as if the wood has become somewhat dried out on those instruments. You may have seen my opinion posted before: water should be replaced by oil, not water, if the instrument becomes dry. Opinions of others may, and many definitely will, vary.
And GBK says: "Whether one wants to oil or not, wouldn't you want the type that your instrument maker feels is best for the wood?" Well, probably so, unless I had good reason to disagree with their selection. Manufacturers are far from infallible. Neither am I, but there are some things I can understand and act upon that are contrary to manufacturing techniques that were established a century ago, and by now no one remembers why it's done that way. It happens.
Selmer Elkhart sells "Bore Oil" with their name on it to the general public. Unfortunately, it's mineral oil, and I certainly hope they didn't use that to process the wood originally. Yecchhh.
By the way, Rendall says the wood is soaked in linseed oil for some months. I do believe The Doctor would be horrified
Regards,
John.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-03-07 21:14
I've left it in the dealer's hands about commenting to Buffet. Yes, they came with Platinum service and probably have been kept in too dry a storage. I've also had some wonderful Buffets this year and am not afraid of them.
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Author: Stephane
Date: 2002-03-07 22:50
Nick,
Back to your original point about Buffet being in financial turmoil, please remember that it is in fact Boosey & Hawkes, the parent company who is in difficulty and is looking for a bidder. It doesn't mean that Buffet as a subsidiary has a problem with its P&L bottom line and that quality shall be affected. Of course a branch company might suffer from its parent problems but I guess in the instance we should stick to the fact, even if being worried is legitimate.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-03-07 23:03
Dear John,
The only reason that I can see for not oiling (actually only replacing the water) is voiding the manufacturer's warranty (a pretty strong argument if other things like cracking happen). I would not get rings swaged or tenons altered until the horn had reached a dynamic equilibrum under existing environmental conditions of the owner.
Yes, soaking in linseed oil would give me nightmares!
I know for a fact that Buffet and Selmer use plant derived oils
to impregnate their wood and unless otherwise treated, LeBlanc and Yahmaha do too because of oil which I extracted from replaced sections of cracked new clarinets. Actually, similar oil formulations for preserving wood have been around for hundreds of years. This is not to say that new synthetic chemistry could not produce a superior formulation which might be better. Getting the manufacturers to change would be another fete.
None of the major manufacturers sell bore oil which is plant derived - why I do not know. One theory might be that light mineral oil in bulk tanker truck loads sells for less than US $0.10 per ounce and no one with market penetration and a superior product
is a competitor (as yet - ha!)
The Doctor
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Author: Jim S.
Date: 2002-03-08 15:54
Why would linseed oil give nightmares? It is plant-derived. Or is there more to it than being plant-derived?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-03-08 17:29
Dear Jim,
Plant derived is used as generic to describe oils extracted from living plants or their parts (e.g. nuts) as opposed to petroleum based or synthetic oils - of course all of these are based on carbon chains or degraded plant material but the original properties of the plant derived oils have been lost in the latter two. Plant oils vary in their properties (carbon chain length, bonding characteristics - saturated versus unsaturated - interaction with water molecules, etc., etc.). Some of these specialized plant oils undergo polymerization e.g. tung oil, linseed oil when in contact with air (would not work very well in the native plant and these plants often have specialized antioxidant compounds, lost in processing the oil which retard oxidative changes in the oil) and form hard polymerized films which were the original furniture finishes.
Depending on the type of plant derived oil, it may have various functions in the plant species - e.g. water bonding, interaction with the cellular structure to impart elasticity - and also interact with the cellulose and various sugars contained in the plant to perform functions like maintaining cellular integrity, water sequestration (holding water) and a myriad of other functions needed by the plant.
Various plant oils (some plants have multiple kinds or variations of oil to perform different functions) do not mix well with other plant oils and so Nature designed natural emulsifiers which allow these oils to interact both chemically and physically with one another. Oils with the addition of powerful plant antioxidants (several hundred described) and emulsifiers (many tens described) form a complete system within many plant species. The trick of course in using plant derived oils in the preservation of wood is to know, and choose, the proper characteristics of plant oils, emulsifiers, and antioxidants for the particular wood type. Different mixtures (both amounts and types of oils) are better or worse for different types of wood (e.g. hard woods versus softer woods).
Knowledge of the chemical and physical characteristics of plant oils is a good start to choose a formulation used to preserve wood but the interactions and variables are too many to subjectively choose the proper oils, antioxidants, and emulsifiers for this job. Once the list has been narrowed by the knowledge factor then it needs to be reinforced by scientific research and searching the historical record (both written and the practical applications used over time).
If there is a convergence of these lines of investigation you may have a valid set of conditions to perform further research using defined mixtures of ingredients and alter certain elements to enhance the properties needed in your application (e.g. an oil mixture which is readily absorbed by grenadilla wood).
Once you have finalized and tested your mixture you also need to consider the interactions of this formula with other elements of the material to be treated (e.g. does it change the color of the wood, corrode metal parts attached to the wood, etc.) Finally you have to have quality control procedures and tests to determine the consistency of batches, stability of the mixture, and the longevity (temporal stability) of the mixture. These are similar steps and tests performed by the drug industry for their products. Finally, with woodwind musicians, you have to dispell the age-old myths about using oil to perserve and maintain the music making qualities of the instrument, and scientifically debunk the improper use of other formulations or oil types within the community. Lastly, you have to compete with others that sell a cheaper substitute product.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-03-09 09:20
So even if the average reader does not understand much of that, perhaps the message is clear that we are extremely lucky to have an honest scientist here who has actually done the research and made appropriate products available to us.
Doctor's Products certainly have earned my respect. For the effort Omar has put into this area he deserves a complete take-over of the bore oil market. We have been conned by the big names with their profit driven marketing of trash for too long.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-09 13:33
Where do i go to buy the oil? What would I ask for? Any Brand? URL/website I can order it?
thanks.
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