 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-07 13:49
Hello Everyone! Not everything on ebay is bad...this one is exceptional. Brenda Siewert won't and cannot advertise it here, but she has a wondrous clarinet on ebay now. Check it out! The # is 1519482058. Her ebay name is clarinetgrammy. I am seriously contemplating bidding on it, but someone here may need it more than me, and I'd like to see someone here buy it from Brenda. Her instruments are good. Just ask others here on the BB.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 14:23
Are the other clarinets on ebay bad? Many are listed as new and under $100. Can't immagine something so radically different that it would cost over 10 times as much. Maybe you can enlighten me?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-07 14:55
In general - new and under $100 are mutually exclusive if in fact quality is brought into play ....
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-07 14:57
gio, try to expand your imagination. Consider the wristwatch. I know where to buy one made in China that works, keeps time accurate to about a minute per month (good enough for most purposes), is likely reliable enough to operate for a year or more without attention, can survive four-foot drops without problems, and costs less than a dollar. On the other hand, I know of several makes and models that sell for more than a thousand dollars each. I know some people who wear 99 cent watches, and I know some who wear thousand-dollar-plus watches. Now *that* is a radical difference. And to explain it, we would have to conduct a lengthy discussion about the history and technology of chronometry, along with style and fashion.
Now, this is my opinion: a new Clarinet selling for less than a hundred dollars has relatively lower value than a 99 cent watch. To explain why would require a lengthy discussion on the history and technology of Clarinet manufacture. Suffice it to say that it is not as accurate as most more expensive models, and there is low probability that it would operate for a year or more without the need for repair. And if it's mishandled, you very likely can kiss it goodbye.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 15:05
That makes more sense now. I was naive to think that a clarient could be made so cheaply as to warrent the radical difference in price. Could you tell me what clarinet models are the Rolex of the clarinet world? That way, I'll keep my eye out for such a professsional standard instrument, which I'd prefer even if i have to pay for it.
thanks!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-07 15:46
There are a few makes of Clarinet that are rather stratospheric in their reputation, with prices almost to match, most of them individually hand-made. These would include Rossi, Fox, and a few others. But the manufacturers that turn out fine instruments in quantity are usually thought to be Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer, and Yamaha (in alphabetical order). These do not necessarily include all the good instruments made; but their top-line instruments are generally excellent, and their lower-priced items are mostly very good.
Regards,
John
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 16:19
Thanks for the info on those manufacturers. It seems that they are the unanimous choice for quality clarinets. But, Im lost on the various models. Can you tell me the top of the line, flagship, if you will, for each of the big four?
I played clarinet since the 4th grade and through high school, and Im thinking of taking it up again. I had a Normandy Special made by Noblet, which now I can't find! (im sure it is somewhere at my parents house in some box in an atic). But, I thought of buying a good clarinet, and it doesnt hurt to have another one, maybe a step up worthy to play Mozart's concerto #22 k622. I see lots on ebay, rather cheap to my surprise. Someone I know is selling a Selmer made in Paris for $475, but doenst know anyting about it, and I've yet to inspect it (maybe will go today to do that). He cant even tell me the model number or serial number. I heard the Signature Model for Selmer is good.
-gio
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-03-07 16:24
John -
Unfortunately, the $100 new clarinets on eBay are nothing like a $1 watch. They barely give service at all. It's as if the $1 watch gained or lost 15 minutes at random, several times a day.
I buy a $1 watch (actually, $6 from street vendors in New York City) about once every year and a half, when the battery in my old one dies. I wouldn't have anything else. I wouldn't have one of the $100 clarinets if you gave it to me.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-07 16:30
gio...Glad you are returning to the clarinet. We wish you good luck and great experiences. Don't be afraid to ask for help along your journey. This bulletin board is a friendly, and civilized place.
For flagship model info, may I respectfully suggest visiting each of the manufacturers web sites for all the details and specs. Web addresses can be found (if you need them) through any search engine or in the 'Resources' section of this site.
Make a wish list of instruments to try, visit a well stocked music retailer, bring your favorite mouthpiece/reeds, a bag lunch, a pad and paper, and enjoy.
American Express card? Don't leave home without it...GBK
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 16:35
Here is a description of one of those really cheap new clarinets on ebay. I bid on it, thinking it was so cheap and decent quality. Is this one of those makes that is bascially worthless? If so, I'll cancel my bid!
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NEW Bb CLARINET GENUINE BAND CLARINETS GERMAN
Here's an Absolutely Beautiful Steuben Clarinet!
A Concert Quality Clarinet at a Below Wholesale Price.
Here is a Top Of The Line Bb Steuben Band Clarinet and not one of those cheap imitatations that you may have already seen.
It comes "Brand New" and still in the plastic wraps. The Steuben by German Engineering is made of "hand selected' composition ebonite of "ONLY" the very best quality.
Included are a Modern form fitting and plush lined Durable ABS Crash Case, Durable nickel/silver keys and post which are sculptured for extremely easy handling, a cleaning cloth, adjustment tool, cork grease, reed, and reed holder .
The Steuben Clarinet has a normal suggested retail price of $599.95. We have been asked to help a financially troubled business and are now able to offer a limited quantity of these superb instruments for a short time only.
HURRY, THIS OFFER WON'T LAST!
This top of the line Steuben "by German Engineering" could not be more suited to an intermediate player, advanced student or an entry level student who is on a budget.
Teacher Approved, Band Approved, Intermediate Approved and Advanced Approved.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 16:40
Here is another one, same story:
CLARINET BEAUTIFUL FRENCH Bb CLARINETS-MINT
Here's an Absolutely Beautiful Maxtone Clarinet!
A Concert Quality Clarinet at a Below Wholesale Price.
Here is a Top Of The Line Bb Maxtone Band Clarinet and not one of those cheap imitatations that you may have already seen.
It comes "Brand New" and still in the plastic wraps. The Maxtone by French Engineering is made of "hand selected' composition ebonite of "ONLY" the very best quality.
Included are a Modern form fitting and plush lined Durable ABS Crash Case, Durable nickel/silver keys and post which are sculptured for extremely easy handling, a cleaning cloth, adjustment tool, cork grease, reed, and reed holder.
The Maxtone Clarinet has a normal suggested retail price of $625.00.
We have been asked to help a financially troubled business and are now able to offer a limited quantity of these superb instruments for a short time only.
This top of the line Maxtone "by French Engineering" could not be more suited to an intermediate player, advanced student or an entry level student who is on a budget.
Teacher Approved, Band Approved, Intermediate Approved and Advanced Approved.
15.00 shipping in USA.
Money back staisfaction quarentee.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 16:49
One more very cheap one:
Bb CLARINET CLOSEOUT ON BRAND NEW CLARINETS!
From Bestler.2002 model, Key of Bb, Undercut Tone Holes. Power Forged Keys and Rings, Nickel Silver Keys. High Impact ABS Plastic Wood like Body. Clarinet is Brand New and comes with Case. A GREAT ENTRY LEVEL INSTRUMENT!!! OVER 20,000 SOLD!!!
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If all these brands are cheap, what would the realistic value/price be on them new? And, will they really have a bad tone, and be off? Ofcourse that is the important part, without which would make them only show pieces. A $1 watch will still tell time and I just wont drop it and expect it to last about a year. I think we should expect a new clarinet to have likewise hit the right note on command, even if it is prone to easy breakage, upon dropping, etc.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-03-07 17:12
Just for the record, and to contradict the misleading wording of the ebay ad. . .Neither Ricardo Morales nor Larry Combs play this model currently.
In fact, do any major orchestral players use this model clarinet currently? i would be curious.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 17:15
Hey, GBK.
I went to Selmers website but since they dont list prices its hard to tell how the models rank relative to each other since im not too savy with the technical specs given.
For instances for student models they give:
1400B CL301 CL311 CL201 CL211
Is that in order from low to high end or vise vera or in no order?
The professional selection does clearly indicate the Signiture Paris, and earlier models. I take it there is only one model for each period/decade for Selmers profesional models?
This site is proving to be an invaluable source of info. Thanks everyone for the kind help!
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-07 17:16
Hey, GBK.
I went to Selmers website but since they dont list prices its hard to tell how the models rank relative to each other since im not too savy with the technical specs given.
For instances for student models they give:
1400B CL301 CL311 CL201 CL211
Is that in order from low to high end or vise vera or in no order?
The professional selection does clearly indicate the Signiture Paris, and earlier models. I take it there is only one model for each period/decade for Selmers profesional models?
This site is proving to be an invaluable source of info. Thanks everyone for the kind help and forgive my ignorance!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-07 17:58
Hi gio.
In the future, to save you having to cut & paste and to keep from putting a lot of extra verbiage here, put a link into the BBoard so that we can just visit it. I kow the instructions aren't here on how to do it ... and the method will change in the future ... but for now, to put a link in, just copy the link and surrund it by < and >, e.g.,
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/
surrounded by the < and > looks like:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/
and gets turned into:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/
after you post.
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-07 18:33
This clarinet is a good quality clarinet for an outstanding price. It cannot be purchased from a major supplier for this price. Most of us have seen Brenda's postings here.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-07 21:02
My goodness - what a monumentally beautiful clarinet - but it's not Buffet - how could it possibly be any good? (snide remark aimed firmly at the Buffet marfia). ;-)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-03-07 21:10
By the way, even though it is my clarinet, I have to correct Mr. Hattner's remarks about the truthfulness of my ad. Ricardo Morales was one of the major reasons the Leblanc Symphonie VII was designed. If you look at the Leblanc website <www.gleblanc.com> you will find it was designed to his personal specifications.
While Mr. Morales may not play this clarinet every time he plays (he has so many and never seems to keep one particular one for very long), he does have a Symphonie VII and is known to play it with a Pyne Bel Canto mouthpiece. There are many fine players who have a high regard for this instrument. If you look at my ad, I did not say Larry Combs was using this as his instrument--I said he played it (yes this very one) at a Leblanc clarinet clinic. The clinic was held at International Musical Suppliers store in Des Plaines, IL and Lisa Argiris she will confirm this. I called and specifically asked for the very clarinet and she play-tested it and sent it to me. I've bought hundreds of instruments from her and she is very trustworthy.
Mr. Hattner, next time you imply that someone is dishonest, please directly contact that person. My ads are not misleading.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-03-07 21:42
Sandra,
Please pardon my cynicism but, it seems to me, you are working awfully hard to get someone to bid on Brenda's Symphonie VII. Why do you keep urging others to bid up the price of an instrument that you have bid on, yourself. To me, this seems self-defeating unless you weren't really serious about your bid. (I notice it was less than the "outstanding price" (your words) Brenda is asking.) The fact that the instrument has already had to be overhauled once to replace "bad pads" and correct "some clumsy key action" (according to an earlier post on this board by Brenda) suggests that it is either used or a store demo model. If that's the case, the buy-it-now price doesn't really sound like such a great bargain to me. Also, given Brenda's comments on this board that she liked the instrument for solo and, perhaps, chamber music but preferred an R13 Greenline (which she subsequently sold) for orchestral work, I have to wonder how good a choice the instrument really would be.
jnk
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-07 22:47
Interesting comments, "JNK". I've purchased many instruments. When I posted here, I didn't intend to bid on the instrument. New instruments often do need "tweeking", just as they need better mouthpieces. Shipping an instrument alone can add to the need to adjust an instrument. I just purchased a pro oboe, and it needed adjusting when it arrived. I put all new cork pads on my R-13 when I purchased it. Just because an instrument is new does not mean that it doesn't need adjustments. If you have purchased a new instrument and not had to do any adjusting, I say that you were indeed lucky. New cars are often test driven by customers prior to purchase. New instruments are often sent out on approval. That does not make them "used" or "floor models". The major woodwind sellers do just that. I made some calls when I saw the posting, and I did some research, and I found that what Brenda said was truth. The retail on this instrument, this model is $6400-$6700. The lowest discount price that I found was $3795. I was torn because I just did make several recent large ticket instrument purchases. I also toy with the idea of purchasing with purchasing a Patricola clarinet (the late Ted Jahn, for one, purchased one.)
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-07 22:55
Oh, and "JNK", Rosewood has a lighter, sweeter sound that's wonderful for chamber music, but may not be the best choice for orchestral work. The advantages are that it IS lighter and sweeter for a nice, lyric sound and the clarinet would be lighter, because Rosewood is a lighter-weight wood. I chose not to purchase a rosewood oboe for this reason, but I could use a rosewood clarinet.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2002-03-08 01:04
Fascinating thread! I paid about $2000 for my Selmer Recital, on down thrugh $1300 for my proletariat R-13 and down to the $100 I risked on a travel-weary SML/Marigaux. I'm always fascinated (being more of the "junker" mentality than of the "new" mentality) by the latest hot clarinet in undyed wood and silver-plated keys. I haven't been around that long (early 90's), but I've seen again and again the clarinet world rocked by the latest equipment. Gimmie a Preufer and a bottle of beer, man! The Rose etudes and my old "Leon Trotte." (I digress!) --Bill Fogle.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-03-08 01:09
Sandra F. H. said:
"When I posted here, I didn't intend to bid on the instrument."
I apologize for missing the proper sequence of events. In your initial post, you stated, "I am seriously contemplating bidding on it." When I was putting my post together, my original wording was "Why do you keep urging others to bid up the price of an instrument that you are seriously contemplating bidding on." In the process of writing the message, however, I checked the listing and discovered that you had indeed bid on the instrument. So I changed my wording. I made the mistake of assuming that, after seriously contemplating a bid, you decided to bid. I see, however, that your second message, the one I was actually responding to, was received at the bulletin board at 2:33 EST (Please correct me if I am wrong, Mark.) You did not place your earliest bid on the clarinet until a couple of hours later, 4:18 EST. I see now that the correct sequence was: (1) you seriously contemplated bidding, (2) you decided not to bid, (3) you sent a message to the board highly recommending the instrument, (4) you changed your mind, decided to bid and placed your bid. (In fact, you bid four times but stopped short of the reserve price or the buy-it-now price. I stand corrected.
I think, however, that you are changing the discourse when you say that "new instruments often do need 'tweeking.'" Here, you are talking about new instruments in general. In my post, I was referring to Brenda's in particular. If you go to:
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=66822&t=66613
you will find a message where she describes the condition of the instrument when she got it. She says (direct quote), "It did need an overhaul--bad pads and some clumsy key-action." To me, an overhaul is more than a "new instrument tweaking" and, unless Leblanc is in the habit of putting bad pads on their top-of-the-line professional clarinets, either Brenda didn't express herself very clearly or the instrument had already received some serious use. My conclusion, that the instrument had received heavy use, comes from taking her description at face value. Perhaps I am wrong. If so, I will have to view her future posts with greater skepticism.
I also think your price discussion changes the discourse. I never disputed Brenda's claims about either the list price or new street price of a Symphonie VII. I never said, nor did I ever believe that Brenda had misstated those amounts. I disputed your claim that $3,000 is an "outstanding" price. I still dispute that claim. Since you brought it up, I will extend your analogy with an automobile. Driving an automobile off the lot makes it a used automobile. Taking title to a clarinet makes it a used clarinet. However, lightly used, this is still a used clarinet and that reduces its market value. The instrument has been on eBay for over two weeks and no one has yet (at least as I write this) offered to pay that amount. For Brenda's sake, I hope it sells and I hope the buyer feels like s/he got a great price. That will be happy endings all around. But, just for the record, what does the late Ted Jahn's purchase of a Patricola have to do with the price of a Symphony VII?
While I happen to fall into the "material does not affect sound" camp, I can accept that, because of its design, material or some other reason, the Symphonie VII (or at least this particular one) may have a "smaller, sweeter" sound (but don't tell that to Leblanc) than, e.g., an Opus or Brenda's former R13 Greenline. Again, if you read my message carefully, you will note that I did not dispute Brenda on this point. In fact, I accepted it and it was part of the basis for my conclusion that $3000 is not an outstanding price for her instrument. Perhaps a professional who plays a great deal of chamber music would find this instrument ideal. For such a person, Brenda's price may be compelling. However, as a general purpose professional level clarinet, the instrument is not a good purchase if Brenda's description is accurate. For Brenda's price to be outstanding, it has to make the instrument at least competitive with its alternatives. You mention that you have held back because, among other reasons, you are considering the purchase of a Patricola (I presume rosewood model). Brenda's price did not immediately compel you to buy her instrument instead, did it?
The fact that Brenda's price is several hundred dollars below new street price for a Symphonie VII does not make it an outstanding price for a clarinet if the street price is outrageous in the first place. Brenda thinks it's ridiculous for someone to spend $1,000 for an old Kaspar mouthpiece. In a similar vein, I think it's ridiculous for someone to spend $3000 for a Symphonie VII. (That, and a shortfall of $2500 is what keeps me from buying the instrument.) Others may disagree. Obviously you do. But, just as you perhaps don't find my arguments compelling (I guess we'll see at the end of the auction), neither do I find yours compelling.
"jnk"
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-08 01:17
So, no one has heard of a Steuben Clarinet? I can't find anything on the net about the name brand.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-03-08 01:51
Bill,
$100 for a Marigaux? With no structural defects? Now THAT'S an outstanding price.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2002-03-08 02:03
Gio- Don't do it. If you're going for Ebay (when you can't play before you buy), stick with the Big Four. And Ebay is still very risky, no matter which brand.
Sorry, GBK, I can't think of any acronyms for Steuben except subteen (which isn't too promising- maybe it's the age of the workers in the Steuben clarinet factory).
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-08 02:30
I figure a selmer for $46, I don't have a lot to lose even if it is on ebay. Is it worth the riks for this low price? I guess I'll find out since I won it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1520533586
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-08 04:13
Micaela...
The anagrams of "Steuben clarinet" would be:
1. neat tub stopper
2. rebuilt cane nest
3. relic: "tune absent"
Remember, boys and girls, the anagram always reveals the truth...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-08 04:15
oops...#1 should be "neat tub silencer", not "neat tub stopper"
Wishful thinking, I guess...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-08 04:31
or: celibate stunner? - I'm not going any further down THIS little path
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-03-08 04:56
gio: I suspect the Bundy is likely far superior to a new Steuben.
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-03-08 05:21
A Bundy is a student instrument, but a decent quality one. (I've never heard of the other ones you mentioned, except Bestler, which is supposed to be total crap. As with anything on eBay, you have to be skeptical of the hype.) Anyway, the Bundy should be satisfactory.
BTW, if you still have that Noblet Normandy around, it might be worth taking it into the shop and getting it repadded, etc. I once had one of those, and it had a decent sound. Some of the others more experienced in clarinet collecting ;-) can no doubt give you more background on the Normandy, but from what I understand it's generally a good-quality student-intermediate instrument.
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-03-08 05:23
Oh, and I forgot to mention that, for $46 plus shipping, you've gotten a pretty good price, even for a student instrument, if that Bundy really is in ready-to-play condition.
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Author: willie
Date: 2002-03-08 06:35
Keep in mind that those new $100 clarinets all have a few things in common. The keys are usually made from metal so poor they can't be soldered back together. They ship them over here by the thousands but try getting any replacement parts for them. I don't know of any good techs that will touch them. SO, if you buy one, get an extra for parts and a "how to fix it" book too.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-03-08 13:57
Ok, JNK and others, please let me speak for myself about the "tweeking" that was done on this instrument. When I found out Larry Combs had demoed a "wonderful" Symphonie VII at the IMS clinic (from a posting on the Sneezy board by my fellow Sneezies) I called Lisa and asked if this were the case. She said,"Yes, he did and it's the best Symphonie VII I've ever seen or played." I had her to send it out to me. When I got it there were a couple of pads that weren't "seating" correctly and some "clumsy" key action. I called her up and she said, "We'll just overhaul it."
I don't know what she meant by that. I don't think they replaced anything but a few pads and did the minor adjustments on the bridge and the left side "cluster" keys that I wanted to smooth up the action.
I clearly state in my ad that it had been demoed. I paid $3,775.00 for it (as I've stated earlier) and right after I got it we had a series of family emergencies with our elderly parents (my mother-in-law and my parents)--yes, all three--and I'm having to pay for nursing care for my mom out of my pocket and decided I couldn't keep the Symphonie VII and pay $8.50 per hour for her at home nurse round the clock. I would have sent it back for a refund, but I didn't have time to get that done between the parental situation because Jerry's mom (my husband) passed away and we're also trying to take care of her farm and animals, etc. When I called Lisa it had been 36 days since I took delivery of the instrument after the "overhaul" and was told it was mine to keep.
Now that you know the whole story--that's the deal. If I had put that in the ad no one would have believed it.
I've had several offers and I think something will work out. My advise is, "if you don't want it, just don't buy it."
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-08 15:09
I hope that you, JNK, had all of your questions answered. I mentioned that Ted Jahn purchased a Patricola, because there was discussion in this thread about who owned a Symphonie VII. I'm glad that you analyzed my decision process, so now I don't have to explain myself! (I do allow myself to change my mind!) The prices for Leblanc vs. Buffet vs. Selmer vs. Patricola vs. Yamaha are always subject for discussion. All have different qualities and price ranges. It's all a matter of personal preference--just like cars. Honda vs. Cadillac vs. Mercedes, etc. What you want, what you are comfortable with, what response you like, and what fits your purse are personal decisions. $3000 for THIS instrument is a good price compared to new and retail. I don't want to analyze it anymore. I posted it because if a clarinetist here is contemplating purchasing one of these instruments it gives that person another option for purchase and the awareness of its availability. What you make of it is your choice. I don't represent Brenda, but I find her to be sincere and honest. For a prospective purchaser it's another option. ...And I posted this, FYI, approx 11:08 Eastern time....
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-03-08 15:56
For the record. . .
Ricardo Morales is no longer involved in any way with the Leblanc company and has not played a Leblanc clarinet in public for several years now.
I hope your instrument finds a lovely home
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2002-03-08 19:55
While Ricardo Morales may not be associated with Leblanc in any way at this time, he did endorse the Symphonie VII and is posted as such on the Leblanc website (www.gleblanc.com). Whether or not he likes it and continues to use it is irrelevant to the issue. He has been seen and heard playing it and did allow his name to be associated with it. End of discussion. My ad only reflected the advertising done by the Leblanc company and research I have personally done with this instrument.
And Jack, you said "However, as a general purpose professional level clarinet, the instrument is not a good purchase if Brenda's description is accurate. For Brenda's price to be outstanding, it has to make the instrument at least competitive with its alternatives." My price was based upon the fact that I paid $3,775.00 for it 6 weeks ago. I did not get a discount, nor was it sold to me as a demo model, although it was demoed at the IMS clarinet clinic. If I were in charge of pricing clarinets across the board according to their quality alone as a professional instrument, that would be a wonderful world. However, the Leblanc company set the price on this instrument and I will loose $1,075.00 on it if the high bidder goes through with his bid. I guess I just don't get why that wouldn't be a good deal for someone who wants an almost new Symphonie VII with warranty and the back up of IMS. I'm just trying to pay it off and get out from under some expenses. I didn't set the retail price of this instrument, nor the discounted store price--but I did take the biggest hit. What would you consider a good price? $500.00 or less? How would that be fair to me as a seller? I'm not a charity organization--but I did offer a huge discount to someone who wants such an instrument. You won't find another one out there that is as new for as low a price. It is in absolutely perfect condition and has NOT been played a lot.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-03-08 23:30
Why don't Y'all get off Brenda's case? If all e-Bay sellers were as honest and informative as she is the whole clarinet world would be improved. Either bid for it or forgetaboudid!!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-09 04:08
Bob Arney wrote:
>
> Why don't Y'all get off Brenda's case? If all e-Bay
> sellers were as honest and informative as she is the whole
> clarinet world would be improved. Either bid for it or
> forgetaboudid!!!
Actually I think the questioning is good. Would it be that we could question <b>all</b> the eBay sellers this thoroughly! There'd be a lot less hate & discontent ...
Posting in a public forum and being a "public" person has its advantages and drawbacks!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-03-09 05:33
Brenda,
I don't think you've given my message a fair reading and you have misunderstood my main point (partly my fault for stringing together two somewhat unrelated points). If you read my message closely, you will see that I said:
"Perhaps a professional who plays a great deal of chamber music would find this instrument
ideal. For such a person, Brenda's price may be compelling."
In other words, I agree that, FOR SOMEONE WHO WANTED A SYMPHONIE VII (or even a professional clarinet for chamber music, and BTW I'm not shouting here , I just don't know any other clear way of showing emphasis), your instrument deserved a serious look and your buy-it-now price was a more-than-competitive one, especially since the instrument comes with its warranty (as far as the backup is concerned, I will have something to say about that but I'm going to put it in a separate message).
The point I was trying to make was that the specific market for Symphonie VII's is limited. Per your comments in earlier messages, the instrument is a "specialty" instrument. IMO, it would be a mistake for someone to pay a premium to buy an instrument that may well not meet their needs (general purpose professional instrument). You said yourself that you preferred an R13 Greenline for orchestral playing. I happen to think that most people looking for a good clarinet on eBay are looking for one to use in an orchestra or band setting. If they can buy a new R13 for $1,700, why would they want to pay a $1,300 premium for an instrument that won't fit their needs as well? It's one thing to buy a Mercedes sedan instead of a Honda Civic to drive to the grocery store. It's quite another to buy a Mercedes sedan instead of a pickup truck to haul manure. (I probably need to work on that analogy.)
My specific point was that, for buyers who aren't in the market for a Symphonie VII but rather are looking for a good professional instrument, your price isn't compelling. There are too many good Buffets, Selmers, Yamahas and lesser (than the Symphonie VII) but still good Leblancs out there for them at much lower prices.
You did not promote your instrument on this board. While her intentions may have been pure, however, Sandra did. Intentional or not, her first message went far beyond providing a useful heads up about the instrument's showing up on eBay. Her second message was promotion, plain and simple. She was apparently not in violation of any of Mark's rules because he didn't step in. However, when one gives an opinion (me included) on this board, one opens the door for disagreement and criticism and one had better be ready to defend it. Sandra said the price was outstanding (and did not qualify her statement by saying "outstanding for someone looking for a Symphonie VII"). I challenged her opinion for the reasons I have given. I notice that, although she was apparently very interested in buying the instrument (she would have been the high bidder if not for a last-minute sniper), she stopped short of your reserve and your buy-it-now price when she could have locked in the instrument. For me, actions speak louder than words. Her bid says to me that, for her, your price was not as outstanding as her words claimed. You and Bob Arney have said, "if you don't want it don't bid on it" but don't criticize it. Fine, but the other side of the coin is "if you like it, bid on it" and don't promote it. For the record, I wouldn't have joined this thread absent Sandra's second message.
You ask what I would consider a reasonable price. This is a very hard question for me to answer because I'm not in the market for a Symphonie VII (or any other type of Bb at the present) and I'm not in the habit of buying instruments to play for awhile and turn over. If I saw one in a pawn shop for $500, I would probably snap it up -- but only because I think I could resell it at a good profit. In any case, what I consider a reasonable price, what I would be willing to pay is irrelevant. If someone in the market for a professional clarinet asked me for an opinion on what they should bid, I would say consider the competition and probably recommend an amount in the vicinity of $2,000. Beyond that I would probably recommend that they look for a different instrument. In fact, you have at least one person willing to pay $2,700. I'm happy for you that there are people willing to pay more than I would recommend. It means you have found someone willing to pay a premium for your specific instrument. You have to decide whether you want to accept that amount. In making that decision, what you think you can get if you hold it and continue to try to sell it is relevant. The value of the enjoyment you can derive from owning it is relevant. What you originally paid for the instrument is irrelevant. The current value of your investment in the instrument is the highest amount someone is willing to pay you for it. No one can fault you for trying to recover as much of your cost as possible.
IMO, Leblanc has set the Symphonie VII's price too high for the value delivered. You state, "If I were in charge of pricing clarinets across the board according to their quality alone as a professional instrument, that would be a wonderful world. However, the Leblanc company set the price on this instrument." I happen to think that clarinets should be priced in accordance with their quality and, when they are overpriced for their quality, people shouldn't buy them. You comment sounds like you are inclined to agree that the Symphonie VII is pricey. Still you bought the instrument. As you bought it to play rather than own, apparently you regarded the benefits in use greater than the cost. Sometimes, however, even good decisions have bad outcomes. Unfortunately, unforseen circumstances force you to sell it prematurely. Unless you can wait and find someone who really wants a Symphonie VII, you are likely to sell it to someone who sees it as a substitute for some other subset of clarinets. Those clarinets will form the pricing frame of reference and you will probably take a loss. The faster you feel you need to convert the instrument to cash, the larger that loss will likely be.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-09 05:52
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> She was
> apparently not in violation of any of Mark's rules because he
> didn't step in.
It's the slippery slope. I would much rather someone just put a pointer in for an instrument for sale and let us make our decisions, but what then of our discussions of barrels, mouthpieces, reeds, oils, and indeed clarinets when their makers come on the BBoard and want to discuss things intelligently or someone whnts to talk glowingly of them? That's why the rule says "self" promotion.
It's a fine line ...
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2002-03-09 05:53
I wrote a message similar to this one this morning before Brenda sent her last message but before I submitted it, I left this site for a moment to check a fact and, when I returned, my message was gone and I didn't have time to recreate it. I probably feel more strongly about this than any of my other comments on this thread.
Brenda,
From comments you made either in another message to the board, or your ad in the Sneezy classifieds and your eBay ad, I knew the general background behind your selling of this clarinet. What disappoints me most in this story is that, considering all the business you have given International and all the business you have sent their way, they (Lisa?) apparently couldn't see fit to cut you some slack on their return deadline this time, given your circumstances. As near as I can tell from your comments, you missed their 30-day return deadline by a couple of weeks. Even if they had imposed their 20% late fee, you would have been even with your buy-it-now price. However, considering how good a customer you've been (based on your reply to HAT above), I think it would have been smart business for them to waive their restocking fee, entirely. To say that I am disappointed in their inflexibility is a gross understatement.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-09 10:34
Brenda, Im sure they would make an exception and waive the late fee and accept the return if you made a fuss about it and spoke to supervisor, etc. You may even have to come up wotih some quasi-legal excuse to buttress the overall arguments. The upper people are there to break the rules in circumstances such as yours, if you make the appeal. If it doesnt sell on ebay, it won't hurt to give it a try.
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-09 12:06
I did find that Noblet Normandy Special, finally. Cleaned it up and bought a new Ricco reed. I forgot how nice and warm the tone is. I played another clarinet once (forgot the brand), and recall that when I switched to this Normandy the sound (more rich) and ease of playing was noticeably superior with the effect that I enjoyed playing more and thus did in fact.
The Clarinet does needs some pads, and I think at least one of the side keys is a little bent touching on another one. But, I don’t ever use that note, and it plays very well still.
I'd like to take it in to get it overhauled or reconditioned, polished, etc. Any recommendations for going about to do this?
I noticed this ebay add for such a service, and I'm wondering if anyone has any comments. I don't like the idea of sending off my instrument through the mail, out of State, when I can find a local place to do it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1522082062
Other question I have is about Reeds. I have never ever used anything other than the student reed, Rico. Are they not that good? Why not? How do more expensive ones differ for play? Also, what strength/number would be recommended, and what significance does it have for play? I've always used a 2 or 1&1/2. Should I try a bigger number?
Thanks,
gio
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Author: Sandra F. H.
Date: 2002-03-09 13:15
JNK, you make some good points, and I've read all of your postings with interest. Mark is right, this board brings out much good discussion. There is no self-promotion here. I've made inquiries on this board with much appreciated feedback. The point is to respect each other and to allow information to freely flow. You do know that some people do purchase Mercedes to drive to the grocery store because it's a personal preference...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-09 19:39
I am also quite dismayed at the attitude displayed by IMS in regard to their inflexiblity of the rules, especially to a customer who has been loyal, generated positive publicity for them, and sent many $$ of business their way.
A while ago, purely by accident, I stumbled across an interesting (and quite controversial) thread about IMS. Although it does make rather amusing reading, perhaps now is a good time to review the experience of others in dealing with this company.
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=31129&t=30813
In these times of wooing loyal customers (and keeping them) it is surely hard to understand their most recent attitude.
Just curious:
1. Does anyone have a ballpark guess as to the actual "dealer cost" of the $3775 (their selling price) Leblanc Rosewood Symphonie VII?
2. Did IMS ever offer to buy the instrument back, and if so, at what price?...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-09 19:54
By the way, the above thread reference was the only one that I can remember where Mark officially closed the thread and eventually declared any more postings off limits, or face disciplinary action for breaching Bulletin Board etiquette...GBK
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Author: gio
Date: 2002-03-10 11:25
Can anyone help me identify this clarinet? Its by "La Mer"
I've been looking all over the net, and I just give up. For some kind of info on things I guess the interent just does not equal a library/book. Maybe one of you have heard of this? Im just curious and trying to find out about different makes/model, their histories, etc.
btw, those cheap sub $100 new clarinets were made in Taiwan, and being presented as German and French. hehe
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=850108819
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-10 15:41
The primary reference book for brass and woodwinds, The New Langwill Index, stops at 1950.
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The Clarinet Pages
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