 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jean
Date: 1999-07-08 16:34
I thought this might be the correct place to ask this question. I have a very old (c. 1900) set of matched Eb and Bb wooden clarinets and their original case, manufactured (according to the markings) in Leipzig by R. Schopper. I want to have these instruments appraised for insurance purposes. I am looking for help in finding an appraiser who would know about vintage musical instruments. I am located in Pennsylvania, if that helps, but I am willing to travel to have the instruments appraised. I would appreciate an emailed response, but you could also post here for the benefit of others who might have a similar question.
As an interesting side-note, the clarinets came to me from my step-grandfather, who was born in 1900. I am told that his father played with John Phillip Sousa in one of the Sousa bands. I am tickled to think that these instruments might have once played under the direction of JPS!!! Makes a neat family story anyways! Thank you!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-08 17:17
Schopper was noted for Brass Instruments (BI). From <B><I>The New Langwill Index</B></I>:
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Schopper, Hermann Robert (b Adorf 21 February 1859; d Leipzig 11 September 1938) BI fl Leipzig 1888/9-1943.
Makers and dealers. 1879 working for J.C. PENZEL, then C.F. ZETSCHE, HIRSBRUNNER, in Milano and with (10) F.A. HECKEL in Dresden; 1888/99 established in Leipzig, calling himself successor of J.C. Penzel (but see (2) 0. ULLMANN); 1899 built FLEISCHER trumpet model; 1930 showed new Bb trumpet developed in collaboration with F. HERBST and a trombone to a commission of music directors. His son Fritz Arno Konstantin (b 1894) successor; 1943 factory destroyed.
According to Heyde, his trumpets were modelled on those of F.A. Heckel; the firm enjoyed an excellent reputation, making all their own components; trained A. OTT, H. Latzsch (b 1918).
MARK: [maker's name in 'an tiqua' typeface on earlier first quality instruments: from 1912 with added crown: those not of their own manufacture with straight-lined stamp, their own with oval stamp]
SERIAL NUMBERS: 14600=c1925:17000=c1932.
INVENTION: 1899 (in collaboration with FLEISCHER Of
Meiningen): trumpet 'System Fleischer-Schopper' with fourth valve; (1913: 'Ventilrohr' for bugle.
PATENT: 1893 (D) #14528: BI mute in glass; 1894 (D) #33769: 'Engelstrompete', 'Cheruskertrompete' (types of parade trumpet).
EXHIBITION: Leipzig 1897.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: ZfI 15.555,17.847,19.636,49 (15 ii 1929), 50.682, O'Loughlin in NGDMI, Heyde 1980b, Heyde 1987.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-07-08 17:35
Just curious. Are these Boehm system clarinets or something else? If you are not familiar with different key systems, the lower joint of the Boehm system clarinet will have four levers (keys) to be operated by the right hand little finger and three on the left hand side (these are operated by the left hand little finger when the clarinet is assembled). Other systems have fewer keys.
Do they have any markings such as LP or HP or anything else on the instruments?
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Author: Jean
Date: 1999-07-12 15:37
The case which I have (and believe to be the case the clarinets originally came in) has a label inside which reads, "Robert Schopper, Instrumentenbauranst, Leipzig". Clarinets from a trumpet maker, hmmm? Interesting.
The maker's marks on these instruments are found in two locations: one is on the bell, in very plain script, all capital letters, R. SCHOPPER, LEIPZIG. I mispoke when I said matched Eb and Bb; it is an A and Bb pair. The same maker's mark is also located on the upper portion of the clarinet (they are four piece clarinets - mouthpiece, upper portion, lower portion, and bell). The mark of "A" and "B" are located about an inch above the A key on each of the instruments. The mouthpieces are not the originals. There is also a lyre (I think that's what it's called - it clamps onto the center joint of the instrument for holding music in a marching band) in the case which has a circular maker's mark which reads, "Buffet, Crampon&Cle, A Paris".
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Author: Jean
Date: 1999-07-12 15:41
Dee,
They are indeed Boehm system clarinets. If you read my other post "On Schopper" you will see what marks these instruments have. There are no numerical marks (such as serial numbers) anywhere on these instruments. I also wanted to include that the instruments are marked a second time to differentiate the A from the B. The second markings are on the lower portion, located just about an inch above the last covered hole on the instrument. I played the Bb one as a child, but moved to bass clarinet in junior high school, and it's been a long time since high school (when I last played), so you'll have to excuse me forgetting what each part of the instrument is called!
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-07-12 17:35
I don't know this clarinet and have no idea what it's worth, but maybe this is the place to talk a little bit about appraisals in general. It's very difficult to get a non-biased appraisal without paying for it from a specialist in old instruments. If you live near a museum with an instrument collection, the curator might do appraisals, or might be able to tell you who in your area has a reputation for honest valuations.
Getting a price from a dealer (music store) on an instrument you're not actually offering for sale through that store is difficult, though some dealers do appraisals for a fee. Dealers will be happy to tell you what *they'll* give you, but most dealers get fed up with people coming in and asking for free information. That sounds kind of awful, and most of them won't come right out and say it, but you can understand from their point of view that time is money and they need to make a living. People want free advice all the time. Also, dealers know (generally from unfortunate experience...) that the customer might ask how much an instrument is worth "for insurance valuation," then try to sell the dealer the instrument for that amount, then go stomping off feeling cheated and badmouthing the dealer later, if the dealer won't fork over that much. It's an awkward situation for a retailer. Insurance value to *replace* a vintage instrument is *always* higher than what a dealer will pay. To make back the cost of handling (and, if necessary, restoring) an instrument, and to make a profit, a dealer will generally offer a customer half (or less, if the item needs a lot of work) the price for which s/he hopes to sell the piece. Even if you tell the dealer the instrument is not for sale now, s/he is still likely to avoid getting into iinsurance value and will just name the price s/he would be willing to pay, i.e. well below the retail value, just because s/he figures everything will be for sale eventually and s/he doesn't want the customer coming back later and arguing about getting full retail.
Bottom line, if anyone has a clarinet that might be truly rare and valuable: If you can get an indifferent appraisal from a reputable auction house such as Sotheby's or Christies, or from a museum employee, you're probably going to hear a higher amount than if you go to a retail dealer. (And I say that on the assumption that we're talking about honest dealers who would rather not play games with you -- They're just protecting themselves.)
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Author: Jean
Date: 1999-07-12 22:51
If you read my original post, I WAS asking for information about where I would find someone to appraise these instruments. Dee and Mark asked questions, which I took the time and effort to answer. I am NOT looking for free information!!! As I stated in the beginning post, I AM willing to travel to wherever I may need, in order to get a true and real appraisal. I am just a bit miffed that you would assume that I was out for the purposes you stated in your posting. Since these instruments are part of my family history, I do not intend on parting with them, but would like to know their true value, even as an historical footnote (regarding the Sousa connection I stated in my first post.)
Isn't it sad how everyone automatically assumes that others have the most base purposes these days? Must be terrible to be that cynical, or I must be a real Pollyanna.
So again, I will ask for anyone who can direct me to an appraiser in the Pennsylvania area,(or within reasonable driving distance) please post here or feel free to email me... (Just in case I didn't make that request plainly enough in my first posting... which I guess I didn't.)
Jean
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-07-13 18:07
Geez, sorry you took my comments as some sort of accusation, which is not how I meant them. Explaining anything to someone who overreacts the way you just did is probably a waste of time, but for other people reading this message: In going out of my way to say that I was giving some *general* information about how to get information, I tried to give some tips on how people you approach are likely to *react* to certain types of approaches, and I based what I said on more than thirty years of flea market / junktiques / antiques experience, BTW. As a professional stained glass repair person, I've also fielded my share of requests for free appraisals and have dealt with the difficult problem of having to explain to some customers that their old but not valuable stained glass would cost more to restore than it was worth in money, although at times the sentimental value of a piece made it worth restoring anyway. And yes, you are looking for free information, or else you wouldn't have asked your questions here on this free bulletin board. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with looking for free information, IMHO; I do it all the time myself; I profit from it; and I consider the source. If the source is a dealer who will profit from low-balling an estimate, I take that into account.
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Author: Djoksch
Date: 2017-01-02 09:18
Hi,
I know this is an old message, but I own a Robert Schopper saxophone S/N 2. I have been checking museums to research Schopper woodwinds. Yours clarinets are the only other woodwinds I've heard of. I would be curious to know the serial numbers.
Thanks
Doug
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