 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: lizzy
Date: 2002-02-15 18:12
I know this topic has been discussed before but I felt the need to bring it up again...
Well the other day at my clarinet lesson I got yelled at by my teacher for using vibrato. I argued that I think it sounds good but of course she contradicts me and tells me never to use it again....
I think that my teacher should be encouraging me to develop my own individual playing style, not making me sound exactly like her....or exactly like a computer.
Well I dunno, I'm just kind of annoyed.
Besides, what's wrong with a little vibrato once in a while--What do you guys think about the whole situation? Who's right??!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-02-15 18:24
The answer is ... yes.
In my opinion, small amounts of vibrato (including different rates and pitch changes, depending ...) sound pleasing when done well, but as been expressed here before there are times when vibrato is used to cover a multitude of sins. If I were a teacher I would not be encouraging experimentation in the use of vibrato in "classical" music at all until the student was fairly advanced and reasonable well-versed in the performance practices of the time the music was composed, not because one <b>has</b> to stick with particular performance practices, but because one should know <b>when</b> and <b>why</b> to use particular techniques and to know <b>when</b> and <b>why</b> you might be breaking the rules of those practices.
Another problem you'll encounter is that very few clarinet teachers today can instruct you in creating a vibrato - personally I'd want instructions from someone who knew how to perform vibrato in different ways and knew something about the pros and cons of different techniques.
Then there's the practical side of things. When you're auditioning for different placements and roles you need to meet the expectations of the people you're performing for. If you don't really care what they think, then you can do anything you want - but then why are you auditioning? You may as well try a solo career. If you keep things conservative and then win a position, after a while you'll be in a more secure position to try things a bit different.
Clarinetists (and many other musicians!) are conservative by nature. You'll have to remember that.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-02-15 19:44
When you play for your teacher, do it his or her way. When you play for yourself or another audience, do it your way. It is as simple as that.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-15 22:28
Mark says, "...you need to meet the expectations of the people you're performing for." Dee says, "When you play for your teacher, do it his or her way." If I could think of another good way to say the same thing, I would.
Vibrato easily can conceal the inability to play in tune, and no doubt some incompetent players use it for that reason. Obviously, if your pitch waves all over the place, you're bound to be "on" occasionally. Please, don't start making with the vibrato unless you can produce a perfect straight tone. And if your teacher prefers that you not use it, by all means lay off it during lessons.
Aside from the question of vibrato, remember that the relationship between a student and a teacher cannot be a democracy. The teacher declares; the student listens, remembers, and acts accordingly. If the student succeeds in dictating how the lessons will proceed, the student's pay to the teacher is being wasted. The student must either trust the teacher or get a different teacher who *can* be trusted.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-02-15 23:12
John...I love the last paragraph of your post.
I may print it out, with your permission, and pass it along to a few selected colleagues.
Thanks...GBK
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-02-15 23:47
I agree entirely to what Mark is saying. The most important thing is education about performance practice, experience and true, not simulated, emotions.
An actor in a play knows how a wrong gesture at the wrong moment can ruin a whole scene and how a right gesture at the right moment can emphasize something important. It's the same thing with vibrato when used improperly or correct.
I did some reserch a few years ago and here is a short version from a discussion about Mühlfeldts "vibrato".
http://www.sneezy.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=35959&t=35959
Alphie
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Author: A David Peacham
Date: 2002-02-16 09:42
Lizzy: if your teacher really "yelled" at you, as you say, you should seriously think about getting another teacher. You shouldn't be paying her good money to abuse you.
She could reasonably have said, "At your stage in your musical development, I'd advise you to forget about vibrato and concentrate on producing a pure, unwavering pitch." Fine. You can agree to disagree. My teacher and I agree to disagree about points of interpretation: I show her that I am capable of playing it her way, then I may choose to play it my way. Often, after I've tried playing it her way, I realise she was right all along.
But vibrato is an emotive thing. Performance practice has changed greatly over the years. A hundred years ago, string players did not play with the constant vibrato one hears today. Can you imagine what would happen if a high-school string player played nineteenth-century music in an audition with little vibrato? Unless the jury was very enlightened, the player would fail, I think. But he'd be right, in terms of "authentic" practice at least. Whether "authentic" practice is always desirable is quite another debate....
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-02-16 12:47
>Clarinetists (and many other musicians!) are conservative by nature. You'll have to remember that.
Hmmmm, if that isn't depressing, I don't know what is. I'm about as far from conservative as it's possible to be.
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-02-16 15:36
It's depressing to say the entire clarinet-playing culture is conservative, because that doesn't leave any room for the more free-spirited elements to play and experiment and have fun with the music. (The one thing that always put me off in music study was that so many of the teachers seemed to be so, well, "stuffy." I always thought musicians should be a bit wild. ;-)) Fortunately, I think there's enough of the latter as well as the former to maintain a reasonable balance in the universe.
(The word "conservative" also has negative connotations for me in terms of political/social worldview, but then, I'm a bit to the left of Sen. Paul Wellstone, so I might be a bit biased.)
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-02-16 15:40
BTW, for a beginning student, I do agree that laying a solid foundation is important before starting to "play around" and think in terms of "individual style." As for vibrato, I don't really care for it on clarinet, anyway -- so maybe I'm "conservative" in that regard ;-) but I think it's really just an aesthetic preference rather than anything to do resistance or openness to change.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-02-16 15:48
The entire clarinet community <b>isn't</b> conservative, though - that's why we have soloists, people like F. Gerard Errante or Bob Spring or Stoltzman. However, their training started on the conservative side - only when they reached a high level of training did they branch out and start experimenting outside the classical repertoire or the standard way of playing that repertoire.
When I listen to new music I tend to listen to Gerry Errante or people like him - he knows where he's been, he has solid roots, he knows where he wants to go, can play in just about any style and generally a great ear for new music that doesn't depend on just technical pyrotechnics but on musicality of the total piece (well, I like what he likes anyway ;^).
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-16 17:50
"who's right"
Look at the earlier discussion "What is the best way to play with vibrato?" and you soon realise there's no right or wrong on this one.
Remember that your current teacher probably won't be the only one you'll ever have and you won't always want to play in the same style. Try to take on board whatever she advises and get the most from her in whatever she says, but in the end it's you who will decide how YOU want to play. Listen to as many players as you can and try to copy the best aspects of the ones you like.
I went on a summer course years ago and took part in Masterclasses with 3 very famous players. 2 of them tried to impose their own ideas and, basically, make me play just like they would themselves, but the third listened to what I was doing, recognised the way I wanted to play and did his best to help me achieve my aim. This is the best kind of teacher. If your's doesn't sound like that you can still learn much, but you don't have to go in her direction forever.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-02-16 19:22
What is really conservative about vibrato is when violinists and flutists always play with the same vibrato they were once taught and don't dare to change a bit because they have found "their sound". We are so fortunate as clarinet players that we can still choose to play with any type of vibrato we want or just skip it if we want to since we haven't fallen into the vibrato trap yet.
What is not consevative is to break with old 20th century habbits of using vibrato and sostenuto in all kinds of "classical" music. This way of playing lasted well into the 1970th with Bach interpretations à la Karl Richter and Mozart à la Karl Böhm. Orchestra sound à la Karajan whose ideal was "Berliner" more than Bach, Beethoven and Stravinskiy. Today after breaking this way of playing much thanks to the Early Music movement we have a much bigger pallet of colours and a greater variety of interpretations. It's not conservative to try to find out the composers intentions and to play in a manner that was suitable at the time when the music was written. It's a completely new phenomenon.
When Mendelsohn first reintrodused Bach in the 1830th he performed Bach's music in the romantic manner that he was used to. Baroque interpretation was completely forgotten at that time and it was first around 1950 that people started to do research on the subject. Until then old music was gennerally performed in the same way as new.
It's in this context a discussion about vibrato has to be held. Even to have a discussion about vibrato is a new thing. In the 20th century it was always taken for granted that certain instruments (strings, flute, double reeds) shuld use vibrato but others (clarinet, French horn) shuld not use vibrato. My opinion is that this is a wrong approach to music. All ways of expressing music have to come from the music itself, not the instrument played.
However, vibrato is a very strongt tool of expression and tends to take over the whole character of a phrase when used. Thats why it has to be used with the greatest understanding of the music played to not sound artificial or superficial.
Alphie
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-02-17 01:17
>The entire clarinet community isn't conservative, though - that's why we have soloists, people like F. Gerard Errante or Bob Spring or Stoltzman. However, their training started on the conservative side - only when they reached a high level of training did they branch out and start experimenting outside the classical repertoire or the standard way of playing that repertoire.
O.K. I agree with you about *training* starting "conservatively," i.e., master the basics before "experimenting." (Which makes me wonder, while we're on the subject, how long it is before players of flute and other "traditionally" vibrato instruments begin learning to use vibrato.) Saying that training starts on the conservative side is much more specific than the blanket statement that "clarinetists are conservative by nature." My nature ain't any such thing. ;-) Anyway, glad we've cleared that up.
To the original poster, I would say, as a general principle, trust your teacher, but always keep your critical thinking faculties active. If it seems like they're stepping out of line (e.g., "yelling" at you or preaching from personal bias rather than objective instructorly wisdom) there's nothing wrong with questioning. A good teacher will explain what he/she is doing. A bad one will get bent out of shape and reprimand you for daring to question his/her "authority." A teacher is a guide, not a dictator. Unfortunately, the world will always have its share of people who get into leadership positions out of a desire to ego-trip rather than to guide and serve.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-02-18 00:23
If my teacher had ever yelled at me - I'd have yelled back and then found another teacher. (that's me - I'm a Leo and we're known for being tactful (not).
Fortunately, when I was a student, my first clarinet teacher was a very nurturing person, she was an excellent teacher and a wonderful performer. The only time I ever heard her yell was when the radiator in the class room sparked and burst into flames and she yelled - "Get out NOW" - we dashed out of the room and laughed about for a few minutes, then rang the school security officer to come and deal with the heater.
If your teacher only yells at you once in a blue moon and if you feel she/he is good - then I might suggest just ignoring it!
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