 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-12 12:27
I bet this gets a lot of conflicting advice!
I suggest starting by making an exaggerated movement of the jaw up & down to get a really extreme variation in pitch, then gradually calming it down til there's no movement, just a slight change in pressure to cause a change in the intensity of the sound. Play around with the speed & width of this till you're happy with it. Beware though that some people will never be. There is a school of thuoght that the clar. should never use vibrato, though I must say I disagree with it; you never hear other woodwind players who use NO vib. and plenty who use it ALL the time. How are we supposed to blend?
Someone's bound to suggest creating vibrato from the "diaghragm" in the style of flute players. I would treat this with caution, I personally think it sounds awful.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-02-12 15:07
When you hit the "geezer" stage, it just happens--like arthritis!.
Bob A
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-02-12 16:04
Well, here's a vote for diaphram vibrato. Jaw vibrato is going to get you into trouble with your control and intonation. I wonder how anyone can consistantly produce jaw vibrato above the 2nd break at low dynamics without losing control.
Vibrato from the diaphram is a technique like anything else, and it requires much practice before any depth or consitancy is achieved.
In any case, that is how I produce mine, you can hear the results if you are interested.
Incidentally, you don't need vibrato to 'blend.' Smart players of other woodwind (and brass) instruments will cut back the vibrato a bit when a blend is needed. Blending is a factor of listening more than anything else. And playing in tune.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Keil
Date: 2002-02-12 16:17
Just a side note as to other instruments using vibrato. Double reeds especially need vibrato for shading and creating that depth of sound. Without it they would sound truly annoying (imho). Flutes also use vibrato, i wouldn't be surprised if it was used to keep in step with the violins. In any case these woodwinds that use vibrato have to use it because of the way their instruments work. They inherently lack the natural resonance that a clarinet has do to it's overtone series and the physics behind the clarinet. I used to use vibrato but i find that now that my tone has matured and continues to mature i prefer no vibrato. To me the clarinet is a very pure voice which needs no vibrato to add to it's expressiveness. Bare in mind all of this is just my opinion.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2002-02-12 17:43
I always thought this is a matter of taste. I do not mean bad and good taste, just different taste. On the other hand, the clarinet certainly sounds well without a vibrato, but a violin does not. Or is this just another matter of taste? I don't know. Solo violins rarely sound well to me at all, so maybe it is my taste.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-02-12 17:57
I always thought that vibrato in the flute was used to cover up bad pitch! ;-)
But seriously folks, I agree with David that for classical playing diaphragm vibrato is preferred. His reasons are clearly stated, so I won't repeat them, but I will say that this vibrato adds more of a shimmer to the sound. In jazz playing, especially older styles like swing and New Orleans, I like jaw vibrato. It seems to fit better.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2002-02-12 18:02
In the deepest depths of a dark forest with noone around within a range of about 100 miles.
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Author: Laura
Date: 2002-02-12 18:09
I use jaw vibrato. Your jaw moves up and down very slightly, like chewing something small between your front teeth. You start off doing big exagerated up and down movements, then gradually speed up and the jaw won't move as much. Practice moving jaw up and down with different rhythms: quarter notes, triplets, sixteenth notes, etc.
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Author: Laura
Date: 2002-02-12 18:10
I use jaw vibrato. Your jaw moves up and down very slightly, like chewing something small between your front teeth. You start off doing big exagerated up and down movements, then gradually speed up. The more practice, the more control you will have and the jaw won't move as much, and intonation won't be a problem. Practice moving jaw up and down with different rhythms: quarter notes, triplets, sixteenth notes, etc.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-02-12 19:21
I should have made clear that I was speaking of classical playing. In jazz, jaw vibrato is probable the only way to get sufficient amplitude to project in that genre.
I can't imagine using much jaw vibrato in classical music and not running into serious problems, but I would be interested in hearing from any professional orchestral players who use it regularly.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Sarah
Date: 2002-02-12 20:03
Here's just a random input by me!
I have recently been told that you dont produce vibrato from either your jaw or diaphragm its a a.....don't know how to explain. It's more natural than that. I give up, have no idea what I'm trying to get across but if you know what i mean then well done!
My friend produces his best vibrato by thinking about this one specific thing that gives him this feeling and makes it all expressive and stuff. Im really not conveying my idea well. hmm.......well.......erm.....yes, I'll stop now!
Sarah.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-12 20:42
In a master class many years ago, Gino Cioffi (then principal in Boston) said he occasionally used a very light vibrato made with the lips alone. He played double lip, and until he came over from Italy he played with the reed on top, so he had phenomenal embouchure strength. He didn't say where he used it, but one possibility would be the nightingale solo in The Pines of Rome.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2002-02-12 21:12
I've played a sorta traditional jazz type clarinet when allowed to just tootle around, havin' fun - solo mostly, with piano and/or guitar etc. I do not try to mimic anybody to any great extent and (almost) never give it any thought unless someone like you comes along, Jerome. Then I'm forced to think about it a little. It's good mental exercise... I guess. No question; all my friends agree I certainly should benefit from trying a little more of that (thinking 
Well, no harm done. We'll survive anyway.
Much like Sarah and her friend, I'm not good at describing the 'how' of it. It's somewhere between jaw and diaphram I guess. It's pretty much four 'pulses' to the beat, however, that much I'm sure of. Yeah, even pulses in even meter, odd (three) pulses in odd meter. Depends on what piece you're playing.
I guess you do whatever works for you that's *in character* with what you're playing. Because of that (character) I would use vibrato only on rare occasions, or at least sparingly, in concert band or orchestra (I've played in both). Vibrato, in my opinion, works okay with 'informal' renditions. How you do it is up to You.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2002-02-13 06:50
Since the original poster had just finished an inquiry regarding "Clarinet A La King", we can assume that he's curious about Benny Goodman. I don't think that Benny, Buddy or Eddie really forced vibrato onto the horn. It's something that just sort of happens when you get that really open sound.
For jazz playing, I think that the person who mentioned 'lip' vibrato actually came closer to what happens. "Jaw" vibrato always carries a connotation with me of a force-fed Glen Miller or Guy Lombaro sax section sound. Interestingly, I find Benny Goodman's sax sections more exemplary--very clean and dry for their day and age. Lighter and more agile.
Rather than thinking wah-wah-wah-wah, think woo-woo-woo-woo and greater subtletly results. This can be a more difficult matter for classical players because of mouthpiece/reed setups that emphasize stability over flexibility. Players using medium reeds and facings will find it more natural to do.
I use diaphragm vibrato on flute, but can't imagine doing it on clarinet or saxophone. I'm intrigued by HAT's post, though, and hope that some other orchestral players weigh in on this.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-02-13 08:54
"Just a side note as to other instruments using vibrato. Double reeds especially need vibrato for shading and creating that depth of sound. Without it they would sound truly annoying (imho)."
Keil----No instrument including flute, violin and double reed NEED a vibrato to produce a warm deep sound. Vibrato used like this is just a short cut to give an illusion of warmth and deapth instead of spending those extra few month it takes in the practice room to devellop a proper full sound without vibrato.
It's like telling kids to put jelly in yoghurt to not feel the sour taste.
Alphie
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-13 09:42
HAT writes "I would be interested to hear from any professional orchestral players who use it regularly." Well , I am one and I've never had any problem. I suppose I use vibrato more when playing 1st clar. than down the line and I like to use some in big tunes on the E flat.
He also seems to have a problem with notes "over the second break at low dynamics" This would indicate that he is relying too much on squeezing these notes out with the embouchure rather than choosing the right harmonic by positioning the point of pressure or altering the resonating cavity.
My dislike of diaghragm vib. may stem from a time,years ago, when I was teaching my, then, wife to play the saxophone. She was a very good flute player who, naturally, used the diaphragm. I just never thought it sounded right.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-02-13 11:58
Just "think vibrato" without moving the embouchure, and "diaphragm vibrato" should appear naturally. It's dead easy. If it seems difficult, then you are trying too hard. Moving the jaw or lips sounds dodgy to me. But for a slow vibrato try describing a circle in the air, with the bell while playing. I rarely do this, and I certainly didn't invent it. But it was done a good deal by Sid Fell, a respected British player of the mid 20th Century who showed me how to do it. It is probably the best vibrato of all, but watch out you don't wack the stand while doing it.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-13 12:24
Graham
Waving the clarinet around may produce vibrato, but don't do it if you're anywhere near a mirophone. It produces a bizarre Doppler effect on the recording.
You mention Sid Fell. I remember when I asked him about vibrato, he told me to use as much or as little as I liked, but refused to actually teach me how to do it. A very wise man indeed!
Talking of "describing circles in the air with the bell" who gets the vote for the biggest 'stirrer'?
I propose Sabine Meyer
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-02-13 15:00
Sindey Fell always appears on lists of the best British players, but I've never seen any solo recordings by him.
Graham and jez -- can you recommend orchestral recordings that show his playing?
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-02-13 17:03
Re Fell, I wish I could help but my mind is a blank. Hope Jez knows. Janet Hilton was a pupil of his and she is anoither respected soloist and educationalist on the instrument. She would probably know, if you know how to get hold of her (Royal College in London I think).
Sorry
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Author: Wes
Date: 2002-02-13 18:04
Well, it seems to me that one should learn both jaw and air pressure vibratos on single reed instruments and only the air pressure vibrato on the double reed and flute instruments. Various speeds should also be available as well as speed variation on a note, starting slow and finishing fast, for example. From my former teacher who played lead alto in Benny Goodman's band, one can practice the jaw vibrato by thinking and saying, "you, you, you...", but keeping the average pitch up. The air vibrato can be practiced by saying "ooh, ooh, ooh..." with no jaw movement. Good luck!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-02-13 19:48
A: "So, now I know all about the techniques about vibrato, chewing and puffing and all that."
B: "Oh yeah, there's a lot to learn eh'." "I wonder what I'm gonna use it for? Any ideas?"
A: "Don't know." "Maybe to play music and stuff."
B: "Music???" "Can you use that when you play music?" Never thaught of that really." "What do you do with it then?"
A: "Don't know really." "Chewing and puffing and all that." "Never gave it a thaught really."
B: "Maybe I'm gonna puff around with Mozart for a while." "He needs a facelift anyway." "He starts to sound as grumpy as he would have looked like if he was still alive." It can only get better."
A: "I think I'm gonna give ol'Brahms a chew." "Heard of ol'Mühlfeldt? Gosh, he was a chewer." "He even chewed up his mouthpiece."
B: "From using vibrato?"
A: "Oh yeah, must have been because of that." "Never thaught of that really." "But as you said, it can only get better." "See ya'."
B: "Se ya' later." "(thinking) Music? Hmmmh, funny idea."
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-02-13 23:41
I am rather surprised that this thread has yet to mention the technique employed by a well-known professional clarinetist, Mr. Acker Bilk. I'm not quite sure how he does it, but I have long suspected it involves his being strapped to a paint-mixing machine.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-02-14 00:05
Classic composers do not like to compose for saxophone. Why? They dislike saxophone players' too much vibrato. Marcel Mule used it but it worked only with Mule's tonality not with mediocre ones. Vibrato is not a tool to disguise.
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2002-02-14 01:47
Not that I use vibrato much (and it's not like I'm a professional player anyway), but when I think that a little vibrato would sound good, I just kinda move my clarinet back and forth.
But I'm part of the group that thinks that clarinets don't need vibrato. Don't know why. . .vibrato just sounds out-of-place in a clarinet.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2002-02-14 04:19
Reginald Kell started to use vibrato with clarinet by my understanding.
As to general misunderstanding of vibrato, Larry Teal's book 'Art of Saxophone Playing' is very informative. Vibrato should sound within a range of plus and minus the very sound. Quite often it is played only within a plus range, that is wrong. Always start vbrato upward not downward. If one like to learn vibrato, he should practice it, taking precise tempo,not naturally. etc.
Saxophone players use jaw motion to make vibrato. Flute players use throat and stomach at the same time. What part of body clarinet players use?
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-14 12:51
Ken,
Sorry I don't have any good information about recordings either.
Sid was in the London Symphony Orchestra from after the war 'til the late fifties, when he was replaced by De Peyer, so any records of that vintage would feature him. Some of these old records have been re-released, but they don't always give the date of the original performance.
I remember hearing a record of him playing the Schubert 8tet which was very nice, but it was years ago and I can't remember any details about it.
When I knew him he was an inspirational teacher and musician, but not doing much playing. He lost the instruments (Martell) and, perhaps more importantly the mouthpiece he had used all his life and was constantly searching for something he was happy with. A lesson to us all, perhaps not to become too reliant on one set-up. I've always made myself have more than one m.p. I can use in case of accidents.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2002-02-14 15:20
Sorry about my little sarcastic dialogue earlier that didn't get any responce anyway.
What I was trying to say is that it's not a matter of whether to use vibrato or not. Neither the technique used is of any relevans since there are two different techniques and both are equally good if they are well develloped and sound good.
What I always miss in these discussions is an intellectual discussion from a musical perspective on how, when and specially when not, to use vibrato. The historical facts about vibrato and the 20th century devellopment of vibrato is among users usually unheard of. In most cases they have no idea of what they are doing. They just do it because everybody else is doing it. There is usually no natural curiosity on the topic and it seems like nobody cares.
Vibrato is a big issue in string, flute and double reed teaching but nobody is asking why and when to use it in a musical context. Just that it should be used.
If we could leave the techniques aside in the next thread about vibrato and have a discussion about music instead it would be a lot more interesting.
Alphie
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-02-14 16:11
Alphie,
This thread started with the question "What is the best way to play with vibrato?" It seems hard to avoid a discussion of techniques.
If you want to start a new thread about music or the history of vibrato or its advisability in present day performance, then I look forward eagerly to it. There's bound to be good debate when it just boils down to matters of taste.
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