 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 1999-06-30 19:04
I'm considering getting a bass clarinet, either a Selmer or a LeBlanc. I see that LeBlanc offers a couple of models with a double register key. Does this mean two separate keys and if so what are the advantages and/or disadvantages?
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Author: WindDances
Date: 1999-06-30 20:13
i don't know about the double register keys. if i were you, i'd stick to a low c selmer.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-06-30 21:32
I have never been too keen on the Leblanc horns... I'd recommend either a Selmer or a new Buffet. Buffet's basses have been getting better and are actually coming close to the Selmer. But i think Selmer still beats the Buffet.
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 1999-06-30 22:20
WindDances wrote:
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i don't know about the double register keys. if i were you, i'd stick to a low c selmer.
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Could you be more specific in your reasoning? Why go with Selmer? Do you have experience (good or bad) with the newer Buffets?
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Author: WindDances
Date: 1999-07-01 02:15
i'm sorry. maybe i should've been more specific in my reasoning. my private lessons teacher in high school played the bass clarinet for one of the smaller orchestras in the area. i guess he brainwashed me into believing that selmer made the best bass clarinets. he found the buffet bass clarinets to be very thin in sound. he especially disliked the throat tones' extra airy sound. also, he hated the "poor key-work".
regarding leblanc bass clarinets: i don't know what improvements have been made to the horns, but they could not have been too big considering i haven't heard any big news. but don't take my word for it. ask a professional bass clarinet player like j.lawrie bloom or gary whitman. i'm just a clarinet/sax doubler who plays bass clarinet ocassionally. what is your experience in playing bass clarinet, charette?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-01 02:31
WindDances wrote:
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what is your experience in playing bass clarinet, charette?
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None. Just wanted your specific rationale for not liking the Buffets. I was listening & talking with J. Lawrie Bloom a while back about the new Buffet; he loves his, and his sound is wonderful, but he'd probably sound great (as I mentioned on the Klarinet list) playing a bass kazoo.
Opinions are wonderful; everyone's got one, but it's nice to hear reasons why someone likes or dislikes a particulr piece of equipment. I thought maybe from your post that you'd had trouble with the Buffet double register keys or something like that.
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Author: Fred McKenzie
Date: 1999-07-01 02:54
Robert Small wrote:
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I'm considering getting a bass clarinet, either a Selmer or a LeBlanc. I see that LeBlanc offers a couple of models with a double register key. Does this mean two separate keys and if so what are the advantages and/or disadvantages?
Robert-
I'm not familiar with all models, but I've seen dual register keys that were selected by combinations of keys - sort of a mechanical logic system. In other words, there is only one lever that corresponds to the register key on a Soprano Clarinet, but there are two holes that can be uncovered.
The purpose of such a system is to correct for intonation problems. The disadvantage is that the keys must be more carefully aligned to be sure that one and only one hole is uncovered when playing in the upper register. I have a post that tends to rotate on my old (1950) Selmer. The result is a mis-alignment of one of the levers, that causes both register holes to be slightly uncovered for some notes but not others.
In recent years, LeBlanc re-designed their Soprano Clarinets but NOT the Harmony Clarinets. I understand that both Selmer and Buffet Bass Clarinet designs have been upgraded since the LeBlanc was. From my viewpoint, the choice is really between these two.
Fred
<A HREF="http://www.dreamnetstudios.com/music/mmb/index.htm">MMB</A>
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 1999-07-01 04:05
From the responses to my question re bass clarinet it seems I should go with either Buffet or Selmer. Since I play Selmer saxes I would give Selmer the nod. That narrows my choice to either the Selmer model 35(low Eb) or 37(low C). I have heard alot of good things about the low C horn but nothing about the low Eb. Do these horns play essentially the same? If so I will go with the low Eb since I will be using the horn for jazz playing and shouldn't need the extended range to low C. P.S. Both of my bari saxes (Selmer Mark VI) are low Bb horns as I do not like the low A extension.
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Author: WindDances
Date: 1999-07-01 04:42
robert: i would go with the low c. if you are going to spend the money buying a bass clarinet, you should really get a professional top of the line model. you may not need the low c right now, but you may need it sooner than you think. even though you are just using it for jazz, you may end up getting a bass clarinet gig that requires you to use a low c bass clarinet. it has pretty much become standard. i played a christmas gig a couple of years ago on sax/3rd clarinet/bass clarinet. one of the pieces i played on bass clarinet was written down to low c#. you really should dish out the few hundred dollars and get a much better horn.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-07-01 05:08
Mark Charette wrote:
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WindDances wrote:
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what is your experience in playing bass clarinet, charette?
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None. Just wanted your specific rationale for not liking the Buffets. I was listening & talking with J. Lawrie Bloom a while back about the new Buffet; he loves his, and his sound is wonderful, but he'd probably sound great (as I mentioned on the Klarinet list) playing a bass kazoo.
When i saw J. Lawrie Bloom play a few weeks ago at the OK Cl. Symposium, i think he was playing a Selmer bass. I may be wrong though. Just looked like a Selmer from where i was sitting. But then again, it was an ice box in there and i was tired, i might have just been halucinating.. heh
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Author: WindDances
Date: 1999-07-01 05:11
last i heard, j. lawrie bloom was still playing his 1976 low c selmer. i don't know that he'll ever put that thing away. it seems to work very nicely for him.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 1999-07-01 08:07
WindDances: The Selmer models 35 and 37 are both top of the line pro models with the 37 costing a little more due to the extension. Ideally I'd like to have both and maybe down the road I'll be able to afford it. I know you need the low C for orchestra work but that extra length and extra keywork would seem to make it more awkward and difficult to play. There is also the question of how well each model can be picked up by a microphone. If the low C picked up as well as the low Eb that would certainly be a strong point in it's favor.
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Author: Kimbo
Date: 1999-07-01 08:57
chrette i find that really funny cos when my band instructor refers to an instrument he always says the kazoo and he says i play the bass kazoo
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Author: Fred McKenzie
Date: 1999-07-01 11:10
WindDances wrote:
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.......you may end up getting a bass clarinet gig that requires you to use a low c bass clarinet. it has pretty much become standard. i played a christmas gig a couple of years ago on sax/3rd clarinet/bass clarinet. one of the pieces i played on bass clarinet was written down to low c#.
WindDances-
I disagree. Certainly one can claim that a low Eb key has become a standard on the Bass Clarinet, but the same is not true for a low C extension. Over many years, the only piece I've found that went below Eb, was also on a Christmas concert ("Canadian Brass Christmas", or something like that).
The only good arguement I've heard for getting an extended Bass, was that the lower notes sound better because the open holes of the extension decouple the bell from the body of the instrument. Since this makes the sound different from a low Eb Bass, I believe the extension to low C makes it a different instrument, just as an Eb Contra Alto Clarinet is a different instrument from a Bass Clarinet.
Fred
<A HREF="http://www.dreamnetstudios.com/music/mmb/index.htm">MMB</A>
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 1999-07-01 11:42
Last year at ClarinetFest and this year at a master class he most definitely was playing the new Buffet Prestige bass clarinet (1173) that he personally selected.
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Author: William Fuller
Date: 1999-07-01 13:53
I heard Charles Bay (a pretty good clarinetist as well as mp maker) say that you could get as good a bass clarinet sound on a plastic horn as on an expensive wood model. Bass Clarinet Seminar at the Mid-West Band and Orchestra Clinic--Chicago-- three years ago.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-01 14:30
I contacted a friend of mine in the Chicago Symphony to check on what J. Lawrie Bloom's playing. According to my friend, Lawrie switched several years ago to the Buffet when they first came out, and the last model was a major acoustical change.
The model that Lawrie has been playing for the last 3 months is just now commercially available; my friend says that the redesign has "worked wonders for the usual mechanical and acoustical deficiencies of the all previous models."
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-07-01 15:17
May I interject a few heretical comments?
(1) Who cares what J. Lawrie Bloom, or anyone else is playing (other than for academic interest)? What matters is what THE BUYER likes, and what works for HIM ALONE.
(2) Although, statistically speaking, the top brands and models will be, ON THE AVERAGE, better horns, that doesn't mean that any given horn, of any brand, will necessarily be good, bad, or indifferent. I've personally tried many Leblancs, Selmers, and Buffets, and have found very good, average, and quite mediocre horns in each brand. I've tried a bunch of supposedly identical brand & model horns, and each played differently. It's ridiculous to say for example, that "Selmers are the best", or "Buffets sound thin", or "Leblancs aren't as good". Try them all, and try more than one of each brand/model. Find one you like, and never mind what Joe Schmoe thinks about your choice. As Reagan once said, "trust, yet verify".
(3) I personally have never owned a low-C instrument, as I can't afford them. I'm not a professional bass clarinetist, just a part-time amateur/semi-pro, and I've only had a few instances in 20+ years of playing where I really needed the low-C capability. On those occasions, I faked my way around it (not pretty, but I survived).
(4) Finally for what it's worth (very little), I am now playing on a plastic Vito horn which, in my humble opinion, plays rings around most of the top-of-the-line wooden instruments I've tried over the years. I suppose I just found an exceptionally good one --- whatever, it works for me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-01 15:33
Dave,
I wholeheartedly agree with you. The comments I made were of academic interest, since there were some questions on what Lawrie was playing at the moment.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-07-01 16:19
An interesting discussion, am going to jump into the hot water! First BC- an old LeBlanc, good lower register, poor clarion, single reg key! #2 - LeB LL model, single R K, same character - a bit better; # 3-10'[repairing school Vito's and Bundy's. a couple played very well!!! Present , a Selmer 32-33? [1960-70?] low Eb, double R K, excellent chal. fair [but weaker] clarion; also an old Conn -low E only, D R K, pretty fair!! Tried out 2 low C's several years ago at O U Symp., Sel and Buf, both good, slightly preferred Sel [bias?]. Can afford a low C, but for Comm Band and church orch etc, have been faced with very few low D and C's, and I let the true basses have them! Pay your money, suggest a careful choice! Am still working on pad seating, and improving my fingers to avoid the occasional squeek! Don
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-07-01 16:37
I bought an old Buffet from a repairman and friend a year ago for 1200 and like it, but man oh man does that octave key give me the runaround. It fills with spit and sticks and plays down a register all the time. The tone is good though, but I play the best mouthpiece ever.
So you mean to tell me I can by a VITO plastic and get the same thing going without sweating the cash for the fancey horn? I want to believe you, but this sounds crazy.
I need more proof and support for this. A lot of my playing is at parties and clubs and dirty bars so this could help me.
Also, I used to play a Selmer Bass that only had a low E. I rented it for a year from the Sax Shop in Evanston, IL. (E-town!) I loved this horn more than any other. Because of the long B coming right out of the bell, I could scream and vocalize much more more. The horn felt entirely more flexible. Unfortunately they wouldn't let me buy it. The draw back was that the long B stuck out like a sore thumb in more conservative settings, but at the time I used my schools low C for that anyway. So, I asking 2 things:
1) Plastic?!?
2) Who can get me a Selmer low E?
THanks
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-07-01 19:31
Stuart,
Without going into the physics (which others have already done far better than I can), I'll just put it bluntly: THE MATERIAL OF AN INSTRUMENT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE TO THE SOUND! Here's what really happens: People BELIEVE that pretty wood instruments are better than plastic (or hard rubber) instruments, so the instrument makers save their hand workmanship, precision machining, better key materials, and custom regulation for their WOOD instruments. They don't spend nearly as much time and effort on their plastic instruments, but that's because of MARKETING and PERCEPTION --- it has NOTHING to do with the inherent goodness/badness of plastic vs. wood. Ask Charles Bay -- among other things, he takes plastic instruments and undercuts the tone holes, regulates them, etc. and makes them into extremely good professional instruments. I play a plastic Vito because (besides being 1/3 to 1/4 the price of a wooden bass clarinet) the one I happened to try at the music store PLAYED GREAT! Maybe I just got extremely lucky, but I guarantee, if anyone ever hears me play bass clarinet (and can't actually see the instrument), they'll never guess it's plastic. So that's my take on plastic vs. wood. Many very good people will disagree strongly with my opinion, but that's what makes a horse race (so they say).
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-07-01 19:43
Mark Charette, Webmaster wrote:
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Last year at ClarinetFest and this year at a master class he most definitely was playing the new Buffet Prestige bass clarinet (1173) that he personally selected.
I'm still pretty certain he was playing a Selmer at the OK Symposium. Not sure of many Buffets with a round logo. Maybe he uses one or the other in different situations.
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Author: Contragirl
Date: 1999-07-02 00:44
Maybe I'm a little bit biased (okay, so I'm really biased) but after playing alto clarinet part on a contralto clarinet, I miss my low notes! You bass clarinet players are so lucky!
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Author: Alec Thigpen
Date: 1999-07-02 01:36
A couple of years ago before I bought my bass clarinet, I borrowed a Selmer from the university here and spent some time on it. I found the keys to be in the wrong place from my Buffet R-13 Soprano, but I enjoyed the experience, so I got two Buffets an 1183, and an 1193 (low C)and spent time on both of them. The Low C horn has more resistance, and better intonation, but the Eb was more fun to play. (It sort of reminded me of my Baritone saxophone days because of the projection and ease of playing.) Both horns were top quality, and there were no adjustment problems with either.
The best part though was the key work on both was so close to the soprano that I had no trouble switching back and forth. I think that it would make sense to stay with a similar brand instrument to the ones you are currently playing, as it would seem that the manufacturers would keep the keywork in step from the soprano horns to the lower harmony horns. Buffet does, so I believe Selmer does as well. I can't say for sure as I haven't owned a Selmer for many years.
The keys on the Selmer saxophones are not close enough to be a consideration for this purpose.
I ended up with the Low C because it blended better in the community band, and, there is a baritone saxophone when the music calls for more guts.
I hope you try the Selmers and the Buffets before buying. I would recommend a trip to a large city where you can try out several of each.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-07-07 16:28
I'm specifically interested in the Selmer 35 and 37. What's the going price of such an animal?
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-07-07 18:08
Well... my teacher bought a 6 month old used selmer low C last summer at ClarinetFest for over $6000. So i would guess a new Selmer los C would be around $7000 or a little more.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 1999-07-08 08:35
The current woodwind catalog from the mail order company Woodwind and Brasswind (phone #1-800-348-5003) lists the Selmer model 35 at $7,415.00 and the model 37 at $8,465.00. Since the WW/BW sells new instruments for about 35% below list you could get the 35 for around $4,820.00 and the 37 for around $5,500.00. I myself am interested in the model 35. I have also heard good things about the Buffet model 1183 (like the 35 a low Eb horn) and would be interested in hearing from anyone who's had a chance to play and compare these two horns. P.S. It looks like Daniel's teacher paid too much ($6,000.00) for a used Selmer low C unless Selmer makes a more expensive model than the 37 that they don't advertise.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-07-08 18:34
Actually, i believe retailors can't sell Selmer horns for the same percent off as most other brands. Probably because Selmer doesn't sell the horns to them for that much less than the list price. $6000 is actually an average running price for a barely used low C Selmer. The usually price for a new one is around $7000. I guess the only way to know for sure would be to call WW & BW and ask...
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 1999-07-09 19:04
I just talked to the Woodwind and Brasswind about prices on Selmer bass clarinets. The model 35 (list price $7,565.00) is selling for $4,795.00--about 37% below list. The model 37 (list price $8,630.00) is selling for $5,395.00--also about 37% below list. It still looks like Daniel's teacher got a haircut. Why pay 6 grand for a used 37 when you can get one brand spanking new for 54 hundred?
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-07-09 23:01
Robert Small wrote:
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I just talked to the Woodwind and Brasswind about prices on Selmer bass clarinets. The model 35 (list price $7,565.00) is selling for $4,795.00--about 37% below list. The model 37 (list price $8,630.00) is selling for $5,395.00--also about 37% below list. It still looks like Daniel's teacher got a haircut. Why pay 6 grand for a used 37 when you can get one brand spanking new for 54 hundred?
Hmm... well my teacher is no slouch in the clarinet world... he's not famous or anything... but he's one of the best bass clarinetists in the country next to J Lawrie Bloom (in my opinion, better, unless Bloom was just having a bad bass day at OK). So he wouldn't have paid $6000 for it if he didn't think it was worth it. Actually, i think it was the older low c just before the 37 came out... not sure... of course when you make $80k a year i suppose you can afford to stick a Selmer low C on your charge card.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-09 23:20
Daniel wrote:
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of course when you make $80k a year i suppose you can afford to stick a Selmer low C on your charge card.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-07-09 23:21
Daniel wrote:
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of course when you make $80k a year i suppose you can afford to stick a Selmer low C on your charge card.
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Not hardly. Outflow always goes hand-in-hand with income.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-07-11 18:20
Mark's right, as usual. I make a bit under $80K a year, and my wife makes about $55K. But with two small children in day care, here in the pricey DC area, I can barely afford my plastic Vito bass clarinet. Any wood Selmer, Buffet, Leblanc, or Yamaha horn is absolutely out of the question for me (unless I hock one of the kids......Hmmmmm.......)
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